Curves Slowing Down?

Posted Mon, 2008/04/21 - 02:57 by Barbara Jorgensen

Curves started with a big bang but many are now shutting down.

Before you open a fitness business you have to consider what the consumer needs. Location- Will this be easy for me to get to. How far is it from my job or home? Does it have cardio and strength training? You should do strength training every other day. Cardio you can do everyday. Taking a day off is okay. Curves circuit training says all you need is three times a week. I did it six times a week. It cost $39.00 a month. It is an investment to stay in good health.

A circuit for women only. Many women hate to go to a regular gym for personal reasons. In our busy society Curves filled a need. Today you see Curve's name on cereal boxes. It has been written the Curves name is just like Coke or Pepsi. Everyone knows their name.

They found a niche. No one at the time had circuit training that was simple enough for women to do. Age wasn't an issue. Women from their teens to their 70's or even older could do the work out.

I joined Curves five years ago. I was a member for three years.

I noticed that many popped up very fast. The only thing wrong was when I worked out at other Curves they were not the same. One club may have more machines than another club. I hated that.

When they first started expanding a Curves franchise didn't cost an arm and a leg. All you needed was a boom box and a woman saying on a tape, "Move to the next station." The equipment was hydraulic with stationary jogging between the machines. The weighing scale is nothing special. To measure fat you held a device in your hands. No whistles and bells. No showers. They had a dressing room and free towel service.

The Curves I went to was a gold mine. Thousands of people had to pass the intersection that led to highway 68 straight to Monterey, California. They had a huge sign that everyone saw. It was close to residential and condos. In a upscale part of town. A great location.

Their marketing was very cheap. I got a flyer that was home made on my front door. The flyer wasn't what made me join. It was that darn big sign I passed by everyday. I heard women talk about how much they loved it. It was convenient. I could work out, gas my car, pick up my clothes at the cleaners plus go to the grocery store in one hour. Location, convenience and it only cost me $39.00 a month..

Has the luster of the 30 minute circuit workout worn off? Time will tell.

I believe the problem Curves has today is they are selling too many clubs. In the city of Redmond, Washington there are two other cities close to each other. I know of two clubs within two miles of one another that went out of business. It is bad enough that there is competition with other fitness clubs but having to compete against each other is ridiculous. This may be the reason they are having problems. They went into business with a big bang and may go out with a big bang..

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due dilligence by Bob Rodi

Submitted by Bob Rodi on Tue, 2008/12/16 - 23:20.

Bob Rodi, CLP
President
Mount Pleasant Capital Corp.

http://www.bluemaumau.org/a_lenders_advice_purchasing_a_franchise_0 A year or so ago I posted an article on due diligence. The link above will take you to that article. Over the course of the past year things haven't changed. In fact, in this environment I believe this article is even more relevant. I read these comments on Curves with great interest. About 3 years ago I started to see many opportunities from Curves franchisees who were selling their locations for ridiculously inflated prices. There were a lot of willing buyers out there but in evaluating this finance opportunity we decided to pass. In case after case that I reviewed I saw declining head counts, which fostered declining revenues resulting in stores that were barely operating at break even. Some of these locations were selling for 8-10X EBITDA. I would guess that anyone who did buy a location and pay this kind of price would be a very unhappy franchisee at this time. I do not know Mr. Heaven and I know very little about him. We conduct rather extensive due diligence on a franchise system before we will make loans to their franchisees. Truth be told, because of the data I was able to collect on existing locations for Curves, we never got as far as the part where we check out the owners\officers of the franchise system. The emotional comments about the alleged activities of this individual really have no place on this type of forum. If you bought a Curves franchise and feel you were "over sold" that is on you and not on the franchisor. Some people simply never learn that there is no free lunch and that the only way to get rich quick is to be the 1 in 170,000,000 who hits the power ball jackpot. You probably made an emotional decision rather than a business decision--Big Mistake. If you are browsing these pages for the first time, in search of info or advice about franchising, your primary goal should be to remain cold and unemotional about any opportunity that interests you. Look at it strictly from the standpoint of the investment you will make and return you can achieve. Decide whether you want a lifestyle or a business. If it's the former you want then consider the lifestyle you will achieve as a large portion of your return on investment and don't be upset if you get the lifestyle but not a lot of money to enjoy it. With respect to fitness franchises in general, I had made a decision not to lend to any of them about a year ago. Anticipating the bad economy, watching commodity prices rise, and housing slow down to a crawl, I simply reasoned that health, fitness, tanning, etc. are "luxury" industries. The fact that it's only $39 per month will not enter into the buying decision when one person in a two earner household loses a job and people have to make the choice between putting gas in their car, paying utility bills or the mortgage, or buying food. You can have the best location in the world however if your target demographic group finds that its disposable income has diappeared, the business model is not sustainable.

Bob Rodi, CLP
President
Mount Pleasant Capital Corp.

Excellent comments Bob by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Mon, 2009/11/16 - 20:19.

It is my firm belief that the fitness business is one of the worst investments anyone can make. Too many people are not disciplined enough to go the distance. If everyone was disciplined in excercise the fitness business would be a gold mine.

Mindset of a health club member by Tom Gamron

Submitted by Tom Gamron on Sat, 2009/01/24 - 17:08.

Bob, Read the latest issue of Money Magazine. Fitness memberships is the top thing people are not willing to give up. People who think this are not members of health clubs. No offense, but I'd bet 100.00 you aren't a member of one. Americans place maintaining good physical health (97%) and keeping up their physical appearance (91%) among their top personal priorities. Fitness American Style/Roper Starch Worldwide Recent research by Roper Starch Worldwide has confirmed that the reasons people join clubs have changed. With the population aging, membership is perceived as more of a necessity than a luxury. Consider the fact that nearly a million people join fitness clubs each year, pushing membership to 41.3 million people nationwide*. This number is likely to grow as more people commit to an active lifestyle, often spurred by the increasing number of corporate wellness programs and health insurance incentives. *Source:www.IHRSA.org/American Sports Data Health Club Trend Report. Read this article: http://workplaceculture.suite101.com/article.cfm/buff_obama_will_boost_fitness_industry I bet your bottom dollar that part of Obama's reducing health care cost involves tax credits for health club memberships as a form of preventative health. I know lobbiest in the industry that feel very good about this possibility. While your decision is of no consequence to me, you seem to have a disconnect that health is perceive as a necessity and not a luxury, especially with the baby boomer population. Even insurance companies are paying for memberships now. Blue cross did studies and found claims cost were reduced 17.8% and ER visits were reduced 38.7% with their health club Members. Silversneakers.com pays $4.00 everytime someone walks in the door of a healthclub. They do this because they know it saves them money in the long run. Sure when gas prices spike to unrealistic levels alot changes. I shifted from porterhouse to sirloin. I put 89 octane in my car, but I would never give up my health club membership. I did change clubs from a big fancy club 8 miles from my house at $100.00 per month to a Snap Fitness down the street for $35.00, but I am not going to get fat and have high blood pressure and risk a heart attack or stroke becasue gas prices go up. I want to be alive to drive. Tom Garmon

Tom Garmon is still trying by Naybob

Submitted by Naybob on Sun, 2009/03/15 - 01:37.

Tom Garmon is still trying to sell suckers dying Curves franchises. If you go to his site, he's had no more than 16 clubs for sale since he broke away from McCord Business Brokers over money issues. He can't get any clients, yet he still thinks that health clubs will do well during the Bush-Cheney mini-Depression! Who is he kidding? He's been banned from spouting pro-Curves propaganda at just about every site out there, so now he slinks over to BlueMauMau to talk more nonsense. Ignore this snake-oil salesman! Curves will be gone soon enough, and then Garmon can find another money-draining franchise to sell to poor saps.

Response to NayBob by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2009/04/15 - 22:13.

I don't know you NayBob, but I love the fitness industry. I don't just sell Curves, and I don't need 100 listings either. I am happy servicing my clients whether I have 2 or 12. Everything I cited are independent studies. I'm not making up this stuff. I sell Curves, Snap Fitness, and big box clubs. I don't know where you get off assuming I sell only Curves. You are misinformed. Perhaps you are just looking at one of my site. Besides about 1/2 of my listings are not even on the website. Most buyers are members, not passers by on the internet anyway. I love fitness and believe in the franchise system. I have owned my own health clubs and know that a franchise brings a lot to the table. Did you know that gyms are 2nd to restaurants in failure rates? Anyway, you should stick to Sean Kelly's gutter site for haters. This site is about INTELLIGENT, civil discussion. You wouldn't fit in. You work for the lawyers suing Curves anyway trying to add to the measly 180 litigants out of 6200 domestic franchisees suing Curves. When it is all said and done the only winners will be the lawyers.

Watch What You Say by Mr. Blue MauMau

Submitted by Mr. Blue MauMau on Wed, 2009/04/15 - 23:38.

I would refer our anonymous guest to read our posting guidelines. Calling individuals "crooks" without proof is not allowed, although we understand in some circumstances that hyperbole and sarcasm are being used.

Our culture on Blue MauMau is one where we speak with evidence about the merits of a company and small business issues, rather than about persons.

Re: Mindset of a health club member by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2009/03/12 - 21:07.

Oh my lord Tommy boy is back. What a joke. He was bared from other sites for being a jerk and now we find him here. He was part of the scam of selling curves for McCords and now he is trying to sell them on his own. He is the same as howie a rip off with no moral bases and not one ethical bone in his body. Anyone who believes his crap needs his or hers head examined.

Tom you bring up some good points by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sun, 2009/02/22 - 16:12.

What about those that are getting laid off and not able to pay their mortgages? Will they be able to keep their health insurance let alone their gym memberships. Our country is in bad shape financially. I personally do better joining a fitness club. You have to agree that people are loosing their jobs all over the country. They will pay their house payments first before a gym membership. They will have to workout at home go for walks or use the good old DVD workouts.

Once the economy gets better which may be quite a long way off MAYBE things will get better for gym memberships. Pesonally I love working out with people around.

Foreclosures and Fitness by Tom Garmon

Submitted by Tom Garmon on Wed, 2009/04/15 - 23:27.

Well that's a good question. My brother recently lost his home, but he never gave up his fitness membership. He's single and wants to stay in shape and exercise helps to manage stress. Now if giving up a fitness membership is going to save one's house then obviously they would give it up. If someone is not using the gym regularly perhaps they would give it up. But if you read the Money magazine survey they give up gadgets, vacations. sporting events and cultural events before anything else and fitness memberships last. That's pretty impressive. The long term cost of not being healthy are far greater than the cost of the membership; not to mention quality of life factor. Health club memberships are expected to grow 4% this year. "Just because you've been let go doesn't mean you have to let your appearance go. That's the sentiment many Americans are taking on this year, as total gym memberships are estimated to increase by 4% in 2009, according St. Louis, Mo.-based market research firm Stifel Nicolaus" The industry has proven to be recession resistant if not recession proof. I guess we will know in the near future is if is recession proof.

Lean Times Bring Workouts Home by Darnelle White

Submitted by Darnelle White on Thu, 2009/04/16 - 02:36.

As if they were watching our conversation, the Wall Street Journal just published an article on how lean times are bringing workouts home. Here's a couple of interesting excerpts:

Indeed, some say they are actually working out more at home than they were at the gym. Laura Blank, 28, a media-relations manager for an international aid organization, canceled her $80-a-month gym membership last fall when she moved to Boston from New York. Her husband went back to school, so the couple began living off Ms. Blank's salary. Recently, she found the workout she was looking for when she discovered ExerciseTV. She wakes up at 7 a.m., pushes the coffee table and a few chairs aside and closes the curtains for kickboxing class. "I'm finding that I'm working out more and feeling better in shape than I ever have," says Ms. Blank, who now works out in 30-minute sessions five times a week. She hasn't looked for a new gym.

But the fitness industry is trying to be flexible to be more recession resistant.

A spokesman for Anytime Fitness Inc. says some of its clubs are being more flexible with fees for those who are laid-off. The national chain already offers lower rates then some competitors, about $35 to $40 a month, and has actually expanded in the recession as gym rats who won't give up their memberships look for cheaper clubs. The average number of members in Anytime clubs open at least a year rose to 677 at the end of last year, from 625 at the end of 2007. The International Health, Racquet and Sportsclub Association points out that many of its member clubs have reported higher usage during the day as a result of people getting laid off or finding that work is slow lately. In fact, industry revenues reached $19.1 billion in 2008, up 3% from the previous year. The increase was fueled by non-dues revenue, which includes anything that is not part of the membership fee, such as personal-training sessions and juice bars.

Great comment Tom! by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2009/01/29 - 16:42.

I totally agree with your comments! You are a very intelligent man. Although, I hope you are correct.

Thank You by Tom Garmon

Submitted by Tom Garmon on Wed, 2009/04/15 - 23:52.

My mother would agree, and my wife might debate it.

Curves by New Jersey Curves Owner

Submitted by New Jersey Curves Owner on Wed, 2008/12/17 - 20:09.

Call the Waco Federal Court. They are charging 50 cents a page to have the lawsuit info mailed out. The woman on the phone told me the case is huge but it is public information. They have two groups suing. If someone is losing money because of the location, the economy, or whatever, they should be aloud to shut it down without being penalized. Curves wants to charge $10,000.00 and have you sign a waiver that you wont sue them. If you refuse, they sue you for back royalties for the remainder of your agreement. I have owned my resale for three years and never made a dime. I did numerous promitions (internal and external), gave the members things the former owner never did, cleaned and painted. I have lost way over $40,000. The members don't care if there is a recession currently. It is unacceptable to them when you have to make cut backs. I had to go and get a full-time job 13 months ago because Curves never provided me with an income. Between my husband and I, we were putting $1,000 of our own persoanl monies in a month just to keep it afloat. Now I lost my job and am on unemployment. We can't fund it anymore and do not have $10,000 to shut it down. Curves is a fad. Its time has passed. Many of the women that work out at my gym are there for social hour. They don't want to being their friends in or get weighed and measured every month. They want to talk and have social hour. Curves International does not care about their franchisees. Since I have owned my club, the Area Director has changed 4 different times. They don't return emails and do not pick up the phone. They don't care if you are having financial trouble. Their answer if you happen to hear back from someone is "BUY more Curves products and sell them, BUY Smart Equipment, etc" They want you to inflate their wallets. How can you spend what you don't have? You can't get blood from a stone. In addition, ANYONE that manipulates people for money the way Howard Gary Heavin does and claims to do it for the Lord is a hypocrite. You do not announce your religion and say "Look at me! Look at me! I am a Christian!"

I worked for a Curves in by Doe

Submitted by Doe on Fri, 2009/11/13 - 13:22.

I worked for a Curves in Louisville KY and I am so glad to hear someone say what I have always thought. Not only is Gary Heavin a parasite but many of the owners are as well. Present company excluded! The one I worked for sucked her employees dry and expected so much from us for nothing in return. I have a horrible taste in my mouth for Curves and will not even mention the work in conversation. I now workout at a YMCA - yes there are men there and it isn't geared for women, but you don't have the crap to put up with either. Best of luck to you in your endeavors. I hope you can get out of the Curves franchise without a great financial burden on you.

Curves 2009 Regional held in Detroit, Michigan March 21th by PAM Detroit area member of Curves

Submitted by PAM Detroit area member of Curves on Sat, 2009/03/21 - 18:48.

We attended the 2009 Curves Regional at Wayne State in Detroit, Mich. We were told ahead of time to bring our own bottled water. So, we did, only to find out we couldn't open them in the theater. Then we were told that "if we filled out this survey we would get a gift" when we turned in our survey. A member of our group got ill and we had to leave at about 2:00 p.m. (we arrived at 8:30 a.m.), we turned in our survey only to be told by a women sitting there eating cookies that she was told not to hand out the water bottles until after 3:00 p.m. Well, I think the whole thing was cheap, cheap, cheap. I think anyone that gets up in the morning to go listen to a couple people tell us how we can make them richer deserves a little better treatment than that. And the box lunch was full of a bunch of empty calories. The box was worth more than the lunch. They preach about the Curves Weight Management Program? Why not serve what you preach and put the exchange count on the box. Let us make the choice!

I really hate to hear all the bad things about Curves by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sat, 2009/03/21 - 19:49.

I personally loved the work out. It worked for me. I have to admit I didn't go around only twice. Three times. I put more into it and It is the only club I stayed with for a long period of time. I enjoyed the women there and made some good friends.

If only Gary allowed protected territories. Let it be a warning to future fitness owners do not sign an agreement that states you cannot have a protected territory. Even if the salesperson says you do and the FDD says no territories it means just that. Put an addendum in asking for a protected territory. If they don't ,say adios amigo.

I'm going to be in Detroit for a week starting April 4th, and by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sat, 2009/03/21 - 19:23.

Paul and Michael can tell you the food and wine are great at my shindigs. No one has ever consumed any water - bottled or otherwise - at any of my sponsored events. Seriously, though, I will be in Detroit then for the first birthday and Baptism of my grandson. Should anyone wish to meet and greet and talk about something that might be worth looking into, just send me an email or call. If you play your cards right and have a deep pocket, I'll even introduce you to my ex wife. She is living off the earnings of her settlement with Little Caesars Pizza who, so she claims, took her identity when they adopted the slogan "Hot and Ready".

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Hot and ready by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sat, 2009/03/21 - 19:35.

You crack me up Richard.

Curves Franchise by Emily

Submitted by Emily on Thu, 2009/02/26 - 11:36.

To the New Jersey Curves owner. 3-4 years ago, what people were willing to pay for Curves franchise was outrageous as Curves was the "visible" new rage - all overpriced. Many of those people never considered the other costs of operating a business such as rent, utilities, accountant, down to toilet paper...it is not cheap. Those people that bought then will spend a lot of time before they recoop their investment (if it is possible). See 3-4 years ago every women had to join Curves, just like when a new product comes out everyone tries it and sales are higher. Then reality sets in, what is the "real" market?? Today the resale value is much more inline with what a Curves is really worth (2x their net profit). Curves International had no responsibility in forcing anyone to buy a Curves and their franchise contract clearly states the all royalty and advertising fees that will be owed them. That said, having owned a Curves 6 1/2 yrs, I am not a big fan of Gary Heavin as he is not the same man I originally met 6 1/2 yrs ago. But I will say, I do not expect Curves International to run my business, that is my responsibilty as with any business owner! Have they sucessed in making sure the brand is recognized - asked any woman on the street what Curves is and they know and most men do as well - that is what I pay for franchise fee for BRAND RECOGNITION! I have all types of people at my CurvesSmart Club and they all come to exercise, even if it is simply moving slowly because that is all they can do even that is better then sitting around. They can simply go to the restuarant 2 doors down from me if they wanted to only socialize! The majority of my members work out hard with the CurvesSmart system which is a great system and work out darn good if not on CurvesSmart. Our members want to - demand to be measured each month!!! Curves is not a fad, just like any gym, it gets the person outside the home (and in our case into a accepting, comfortable, supportive environment) where all of us can find something to do but exercise. I find it interesting that you feel Curves is always making you buy something, no one can force you. Yes, somethings I get through Curves, but prizes that I give out are cheaper and more personal if I go bargain hunting after the holidays and what fun it is. That all said, this is America, Gary's (Curves International) contract with the franchise is straight forward. You cannot blame Curves International ...yes probably I assume the initial investment, location, economy somewhat although reports say this is one of the last things a person will give up, expenses that were not considered, initial investment and did I mention initial investment have all played a key factor.

Curves Lawsuit by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Wed, 2008/12/17 - 21:31.

Uh, I could give it to you for $2.50.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

PACER filings by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Wed, 2008/12/17 - 22:54.

Webster writes: Uh, I could give it to you for $2.50.

That is in Canadian money, which works out to about the same 50 cents. Plus the last time I sent money to a Canadian, all I got was a few shares of a gold mine on Baffin Island.

Recognizing the public demand for these filings, I am now awarding franchises to a select few groups who will be taught my proprietary method of typing the letters "P-A-C-E-R " on a specially-designed ergonomic keyboard (available thru the mandated sole-source supplier) and for a slight additional fee, I will award a dual-concept franchise and show you how to pick up dog poo.

To see if you qualify for consideration for an award of a franchise, see my schedule of upcoming discovery days and see how much remains in your 401(k).

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Re: PACER filings by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/12/20 - 13:22.

You seem to make a joke out of all the curves owners who have lost everything because of the disseptive practises of this particular zor. Your a lawyer why don't you volinteer you time to help them instead of joking about them. Where is you compassion? For christ sakes man what type of a human are you?

WWJD? He would read the FDD! by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 19:35.

Actually, the joke was about people paying 50 cents per page with no limit for something that can be had online for 8 cents with a $2.40 limit (and a bonus riff on people wasting money buying garbage franchises).

And why do we still have such foolish people? Because they are too lazy to bother reading BMM (or other sites) which have discussed how to get these filings online.

As to volunteering (or as you put it "volinteering")-- again, we have had these conversations before. People will give a slick-talking salesman a $25K (or more) franchise fee and pay another $250K for a build-out. But they are too cheap to pay for legal advice. Then after they lose their money, they are still too cheap to pay for legal advice.

As to "disseptive" practices: has any court or regulator held that this particular company engaged in a deceptive practice? And did "all" of the zees lose "everything because of the disseptive [sic] practises [sic, unless you are the Queen or Webster] of this particular zor?

A bit of logic might serve you well. Here's a plan:

Try tearing yourself away from "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader?" (btw: if you are in doubt, read your own post) and the next time you log onto the internet, try spending a little less time on the celebrity gossip sites and more time on the franchise sites.

My suggestion as to Christ is that you ask Jim Amos, since he finds the "hand of God" in franchising

(Don't tell Solomon about this post, or he will want to nitpick theology on the question of whether the "hand of God" would encompass the "hand of Christ").

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

The concept of the Trinity is not about polytheism by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 22:28.

There are not three Gods in Christianity. There is one God with three personae/dimensions - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - all the same person. The hand of one is the hand of all.

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Veering off to the deep end by Mr. Blue MauMau

Submitted by Mr. Blue MauMau on Tue, 2008/12/23 - 01:38.

Guys,

The trinity, split personalities, glue and polytheism is related to Curves — how? I suspect this discussion is veering off to a full-fledged theistic debate on the Nicean Creed. In which case it may go on for hundreds of thousands of posts.

Mr. Blue MauMau

I know this was written in Dec.- by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sun, 2009/01/25 - 03:36.

I had to comment on this Don, It seems to me that all the lawyers on BMM after three years of giving their fantastic opinions and knowlege have turned into comedians. I don't think they are making fun of hurt zees. I enjoy their humor. I think their the bee's knees. (Aussie slag.)

In fact what Don wrote above was hilarous.

To all the hurt zees. Remember laughter is the best medicine. Keep the jokes coming. I love it.

To all the hurt Curves zees, I wish you all well in court. Go zees!!!

Curves and Religion by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Tue, 2008/12/23 - 12:37.

Mr. BMM, the found of Curves claims a) to be a devout Christian, and b) the Curves is his mission to assist women.

We just want to know when he speaks ex-cathedra, and when it is merely earthly noise. Just putting the discussion in the proper theological context.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

JC and Hands by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:13.

The concept of the trinity was designed to explain how God the Father could be immortal, but God the Son died for the sins of humanity.

Bit of a hard problem. But the claim was that the introduction of the Holy Spirit can explain how God the Father is immortal and God the Son died, sort of a glue between two different substances.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Michael & Stephen by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:23.

I think that Webster has been hanging around with Giles; this sounds like franchisor logic at the ACCC hearings.

And equating the Holy Spirit to Elsie the Cow ?!!

Once I tell Jim Amos about this, you're in big trouble, buster.

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Not My Logic by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:27.

Paul,

Anglicans don't actually accept any of this, we just report as accurately as we can on the state of the problem. Longer discussions require more gin and tonics.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

You disappoint by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:19.

Richard: Conclusory argument. But who am I to burst your bubble at Christmastime.

Nevertheless... Muslims (and many Jews) make a cogent argument that Christianity is polytheistic.

If anyone can actually explain the official Vatican position (which in this case accords with other Christial denominations), I will give them a dog poo franchise.

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

The arguments of Muslims and Jews about Christianity are worth by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sun, 2009/01/25 - 06:47.

about what the arguments of Christians and Muslims about Judahism are worth - little or nothing. One thing seems to be universal in here. We all suspect anyone who uses religion as a business tool of being a fraud. On the humerous side, however, some religions lend themselves more specifically to certain kinds of businesses, and to franchising in those specific businesses. Who, for example, weould ever think of buying a financial franchise from an Irish Catholic? Ridiculous on its face. You buy financial services franchises only from Jewish people. You buy a pub franchise from an Irish Catholic. Auto repair and maintenance franchises should only be bought from Protestants - other than Anglicans/Episcopalians. Jews and Episcopalians never fix their own cars. They aren't suited to it and the pay is too low for them. Anglipalians are good at high end new car dealership franchising,yacht brokerage and resort hotels of the Bermuda/English persuasion. Beyond those obvious affinities, religion is probably an irrelevant consideration when one thinks of investing in a franchise.

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Polytheism by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:22.

Neither the Muslim nor Jewish religion tried to seriously grasp with the central problem of God becoming manifest. The Muslim solution is simply to state the Prophet "heard" the word of God. In order to guarantee the veracity or incorruptibility of the word, some theoretical work has to be done. The Jewish solution is to simply deny that any prophet, so far, has heard the incorruptible word of God. Although there have been a lot of good listeners.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Disclosure regime insufficient? by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:27.

Webster writes: In order to guarantee the veracity or incorruptibility of the word, some theoretical work has to be done.

Well, at least now you don't sound like Giles anymore.

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Aristotle and the Christian Church by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Mon, 2008/12/22 - 23:33.

Aristotle was very important to the Christian Church, up until probably Descartes.

Aristotle's theory of universals/particulars was seized upon by the early Church as a method of explaining how it could be possible that the immutable and unchanging could participate in the corrupt and changeable. A concept you need to have if you want to explain how the word of God can have fidelity. Otherwise, the prophets are mere ranters.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Christ recognized the dichotomy between the sacred and the by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Tue, 2008/12/23 - 03:45.

temporal in his distinquishing between God and Caesar. All things on earth that are sacred coexist with temporal profanities and remain largely unscathed in the mind of decent people most of the time. We are fallible and human, but we have hope. Faith and hope are our rewards for lerning who and what we are and where we fit in the scheme of things. But for compelling exigencies, most of us are essentially good people.

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Amen! by Ray Borradale

Submitted by Ray Borradale on Tue, 2008/12/23 - 08:21.

"comment field is required" - I said 'Amen' ...... I thought that enough.

Australian Franchise Opportunities, a common sense approach to franchising

PAC.. by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Sat, 2008/12/20 - 14:44.

You dummy Paul, you let out the trade secret!

We will never be able to set up a franchise without a registered trade mark, will we?

I thought we agreed that you were just going to spot them them the "P", "A", and "C"?

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, who publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises, called "The BizOp News"

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Steinberg... by Dan Maizner

Submitted by Dan Maizner on Thu, 2008/12/18 - 00:19.

LMFAO - Steinberg, you are freggin' hilarious.

You do not know by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/12/16 - 23:39.

if there was earnings claims,misrepresentation or puffing material facts. Yes most of the country was not in the best of state a year ago. Yet in many areas of the country a year ago it was still good. Washington state was still strong until this year. It takes more than simple due diligence. A year ago there was not enough information about many zors out there. Many didn't know of BMM or other franchise sites. There is so much more involved in why people decide to buy a franchise. I assure you it wasn't reading the UFOC that enticed them into signing a franchise agreement. Today it is a no brainer buying any franchise or business is financial suicide.

Re: It takes more than 'simple' due dilgence by Ray Borradale

Submitted by Ray Borradale on Wed, 2008/12/17 - 05:17.

Too true; most due diligence has been 'simple', 'cheap' due diligence .. and then there was BMM to educate people to put their hand in their pocket and understand the LEVEL OF RISK. This is a great thread so I would like to disagree just to get some 'attack mode' venom happening - but anyone that disagrees with this is a “bloody idiot”. Keep it coming!

We know what prospective franchisees are told to consider; but it is usually what they don't consider because they were not advised by someone with a franchising brain that there might be some additional, minor criteria to think about before their safe little investment offering turns into something that rips their life out from under their feet and they get left with a nice little photo of the family they used to have.

Merry Christmas from,

Ray & Cher, 2 Sons, 2 Daughters and 15 Grand-Children [ain't my fault]

Australian Franchise Opportunities, a common sense approach to franchising

curves BANKRUPCY by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/12/05 - 21:04.

IS IT TRUE THAT GARY HEAVIN AND CURVES INTERNATIONAL IS FILLING BANKRUPCY? i CALLED CURVES INTERNATIONAL AND THE PERSON WHO ANWSERED THE PHONE REFUSED TO DENIE IT AND SAID THAT SHE HAD HEARD THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT IT AS A RESULT OF ALL THE LAWSUITS AND CLUB CLOSINGS. SHE DID SAY THAT OVER 75 PERCENT OF THE EMPLOYEES WHERE GIVEN PINK SLIPS AT THE END OF LAST MONTH. WOW IT LOOKS LIKE HE FINALLY RAN THIS COMPANY INTO THE GROUND LIKE HIS FIRST ONE. WHAT A LOOSER.

How can something so good turn out so bad? by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sat, 2008/12/06 - 12:41.

I would love to know if this is the truth. Can anyone verify if Curves is filing for bankruptcy? I am very dissappointed in Gary Heavin that he has hurt so many zees. I guess he got into selling zees more than taking care of the successful ones. He build a great foundation, branded the name and what is next? I wonder if it is chapter 11. Does anyone know?

NO by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2009/04/16 - 00:03.

Have you read their FDD? As of December 2008 they had: Owners Equity of $69,040,692 with $14,136,945 in cash and cash equivalents In 2008 their Net Income was $17,172,904 From 2007 to 2008 they reduced liabilities from $21,911,276 to $12,904,389 Does that sound like they are going bankrupt?

Re: Curves Slowing Down? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/10/29 - 21:39.

Posted October 25, 2008 ACCOUNTING MANAGER Curves International, Inc. BBA in Accounting with 5+ years of extensive accounting experience. Knowledgeable in GAAP and accounting processes. Responsible for supervising staff, compiling consolidated financial statements, & various projects. Ability to research, analyze financial information, & recommend improvements to processes. Proficient in Excel and other MS applications. Email resumes to financejobs@curves.com

Re: Re: Curves Slowing Down? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2008/10/30 - 19:46.

Anyone who would want to work for Howard Garry Heavion would have to be nuts. Go to franchisepick.com or unhappyfranchisee.com to find out the real story about how curves is going down fast because of lawsuits. It's even been reported that he hasn't paid translators for work operformed on his behalf. He is noting but a fraud who will pay someday soon in the court of law.

Curves to highlight success by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/10/20 - 13:46.

More successful in 8 years than McDonald's was in 25 (according to the Ft Worth newspaper), Curves will tell the story of how wonderfully successful it is: Oct 23, see article for details .

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Re: Curves to highlight success by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2008/10/23 - 10:00.

Yes it has been successful but it is going down now and has been since 06. Howard heavins rapid growth of curves will only be remembered for his rapid decline and the hundred upon hudreds of lawsuits file against him by franchises. For those who are interested to find out what is going on with curves go to franchisepick.com or unhappyfranchisee.com. You will get an ear full from owners who have been ripped off and lost thousands from what we believe is a dishonest and unethical business run by Howard Heavin.

Re: Re: Curves to highlight success by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2008/10/23 - 13:07.

But don't you love "your" Hot Air Balloon???!!!! (Sarcasm intended!)

One of the more difficult due diligence issues is that of by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sun, 2008/11/02 - 08:55.

endurability.

It was the initial/near term success of Curves that attracted all the follow on fitness franchises. Nothing attracts competition like success stories. The question then becomes one about the potential impact of Curves hyper populating markets

If you posit a market model in which the franchisor tries to occupy available demand, while attracting competition with its success story, the other brands competitors' store locations then quickly become overpopulation. That is one of the more obvious endurability questions.

McDonalds' success had the same impact in attracting competition, but the daily economics of hamburger retailing is different from that of a fitness franchise. You can more easily overpopulate big ticket retail purchase franchise markets than you can low price purchase markets. Fewer people occupy the demand pool for fitness training than for hamburgers.

That means that saturation will occur more quickly in a higher price retail transaction market than in a lower price market. The McD experience is, therefore, not transferabvle to a fitness or other relatively higher transaction price business.

Now you add that lack of analytical sophistication on top of the fact that investors aren't doing any competent pre investment due diligence AT ALL, and you have inescapable intermediate term model failure.

Curves went bust in its investment worthiness because the Curves model is more susceptible to serious negative impact from proliferation than one would anticipate if one were to compare it to another business model's experience in which the comparability only seems to be there but really isn't.--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Curves Succes by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Mon, 2008/10/20 - 13:59.

Curves is an interesting success story. It had a dramatic expansion phase, and now it is contracting. From what I can tell, the owners don't understand either the reason for expansion nor the reason for contraction.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

curves by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/10/10 - 19:29.

Well I see that tommy boy hasn't taken up the challenge to provide the 300 names of owners who he says he has sold curves clubs to so that we can verify that they are still happy owners. But you know what we who have owned curves franchises already know the answer. Of course they dont because they were lied to when they bought the franchise not only by the franchisor but by the broker also. tommy boy you are a crook the same as howard heavin. Any one looking to but a curves should check this site out first www.unhappyfranchisee.com and dont believe a word that the snake oil salesmem tommy boy tries to tell you!!!!!

Curves Growth History by www.curves4sale.com by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 01:15.

Curves had tremendous growth between 2002 and 2005. They sold so many franchises during that time it is mind boggling. The problem was that many who purchased were investors looking for a quick buck. And to capture the market Curves sold them as many as they wanted. Being a service based business, health clubs need a passionate owner present. The first two years of any health club are pretty easy. With a 12 month contract you don't see any attrition until year 2 and really that doesn't start to kick in until month 18 or so, when people realize that their check drafts are still being deducted from their accounts, and they have to send in a written letter of cancellation. So for Curves (or other health club) they will grow the first two years with little effort. Year three comes around, and if the owner is an investor and absentee, they are in for a surprise. In the first two years they have marketed out the wazoo and now it becomes more of an uphill climb. Most clubs have neglected the retention programs because they were only focusing on enrollments and have not been faced with the problem of attrition. Problem is by the time they see attrition exceeding sales it is a problem that takes months to correct and year 3 is when most fitness centers see membership dipping. One person her posted here that 600+ curves locations were on the Curves for sale by owner board. It just so happens I USED to work for the company hosting that site. I have brokered over 30 Curves transactions and valued literally hundreds (approximately 300) Curves franchises. The owners that work them day in and day out do very well, for the most part. During 2005 and 2006 there were many compeditors coming into the market. You have Butterfly Life, Ladies Workout Express, and one that I haven't heard of Fit 123 or 123 Fit. Who the heck knows. The bottom line is that I have seen these places (Curves COMPEDITORS) close all over the country. The rule in economics "He (or She) who gets there 1st generally wins." Curves got there first. Curves just has too much market dominance and too lean of a business model. Sure there are clubs out there with more features, spinning, treadmills, weights, etc., but the fitness market is changing. But with lean, mean franchises like Curves and Snap Fitness, the bigger clubs are falling. Remember the bigger they are the harder they fall. The pie is getting sliced and diced and the 10,000 sq/ft centers are going bankrupt. That’s a whole different article. Back to Curves. At the end of 2007 Curves had just over 7,000 locations. Someone here posted that there were 600 listed FSBO. That's 9%. Now some are listed by other brokers and some never listed anywhere at all, they just sold to someone wanting to buy it. Remember this number. THE AVERAGE LIFE OF A FITNESS CLUBG OWNER IS 5 YEARS. So with that being said 20% of the curves franchises (or any fitness club) for that matter should turn over every year as an INDUSTRY AVERAGE. I'd say that Curves is probably just below the industry average. 12% -15% of the Curves are on the market at any given time. People on here say that Curves are closing. Some Curves have closed. There is no doubt about that. Part of that is due to the multi club owner growth of the 2002 to 2005 era. Some markets WERE OVERSOLD. There were just too many there. Some were sold in markets too small to support Curves. Curves raised their population requirements a few years back if I am not mistaken. The franchise is at the tail end of an adjustment phase related to the growth of 2002-2005, compounded with a weaker economy. On the upside, there is Curves Smart, affiliates like the AARP, General Mills and Curves Foods, 60+ insurance companies paying for Curves, the list goes on and one. Curves has achieved ECONOMIES of SCALE and strong Brand Name Recognition. They will NEVER DIE. I am an independant broker that sells Curves. I do this because I know what kind of franchise it is. They have tremendous support for their franchisees. We are in the tail end of a buyers market for Curves. There is so much happening with Curves it is too much to list here. Go to www.fitnessfranchisebrokers.com/outsideresources.asp to see what I am talking about. Also, if you want an interesting read about the other copycats and the future of the circuit training clubs read this article. http://fitnessbusinesspro.com/forprofits/lights_welko_mastrov_golob/index.html Tom Garmon www.curves4sale.com

Curves lawsuit by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/09/19 - 10:53.

Curves International in a unethical franchise that is on the verge of going out of business. Franchises are closing faster than a speeding bullet. There has been over 200 owners who have already filed a group action law suit and will be going to court over their deceptive business practices. There are another 400 to 500 that are in the process of being filed. Gary Heavin has tried to sell the curves smart to franchises by telling them that it is new tecnology but in realality it is over ten years old and few franchises have bought the equipment. It was just another sceeme to rip franchises off. The curves food products that Tom mentions in his post have been taken off the supermarkets shelves for lack of sales. Real great brand name reconignition. If you want to find out the real truth about curves go to franchisepick.com. Owners who have run the business have hundreds upon hundreds of horror stories of how they were treated by Curves International and why they went broke. Tom states he sold over 30 curves resales. So Tom why don't you post the locations that you say you sold and I'll call each one to see how the new owners are doing. I will bet you a steak dinner that over 60 percent will have second thoughts about buying into this unethical. immoral, and dishonest franchise. Let the owners of the franchises speek for themselfs instead of someone who is trying to make his living by selling them.

Curves Lawsuit & Unhappy Owners by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Mon, 2008/09/29 - 10:34.

I have owned a Curves for over 6 years. I worked in the corporate world for 30 years before that. Curves has NEVER done anything imoral or unethical since I have owned my Curves. It's a business! I have met many owners that think that Curves International was responsible for their profit of their business. That Gary Heavin should act like their "daddy" and take care of them! You buy the franchaise. They give us guidelines on rent, expenses etc and many don't follow them. You make the choices what you are going to buy or what marketing programs you are going to pay for. YES if you buy everything Curves wants you to, you will go broke! Curves is always looking at new programs. Food products didn't work out, so what? Would you rather have someone just sit in their offices and count the money coming in? I am counting on Curves trying new ventures and new partnerships every year. As far as Curves Smart I bought it for both of my clubs. I think any club that didn't buy it really decided to shoot themselves in the foot. Every business has to bring something new to the table. Curves Smart has been a real boost to my business and to my membership. I have been working out at Curves for 7 years and I LOVE THE NEW WORKOUT. I only found this website because my husband lost his job 8 months ago, and it looks like I will have to go out to find a job with benefits. My husbands health is not good and we can't afford the cost of healthcare for a unhealthy person (talk about unethical & immoral). It breaks my heart to sell my Curves, but I don't think you can be a absent owner. I owe it to my employees and members to give them as much as I can to keep our Curves operating at their peak! Finally, your last comment about 60% of new owners regret buying their businesses. Let's hope so, we all think owning our own business is easier than it is. We have had a tough couple of years. My friends that own other businesses have the same cry! THE ECONOMY is killing all businesses. If I had a extra cash I would be buying Curves not selling mine. Investigate and decide on your own.

Re: Curves Lawsuit & Unhappy Owners by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2008/10/30 - 19:49.

So have you sold you club yet or have you had to close. HOW DO YOU LIKE IT NOW YOU MORON.

Freudian slip...? by Mufflerman

Submitted by Mufflerman on Mon, 2008/09/29 - 11:41.

"Franchaise"

Was that just a typo or a clever way of denoting the often dangerous tendency for new franchise investors to think that their businesses are going to run themselves, leaving them to lounge by the pool sipping margaritas and counting cash? Franchaise--I think a new word has just been added to the lexicon of franchising. :-)

Color? by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Mon, 2008/09/29 - 12:33.

Are the freudian slip and the Dunkin' wife panties a matching set?

Paul Steinberg
Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

We have a new drink at Muldoon's that is called by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Mon, 2008/09/29 - 12:46.

The Pantie Shucker.

It should become our franchise drink, don't you think?

All the Dunkin folks who are pantie obcessed ought to really love this drink. The only problem is that there don't seem to be a lot of DD shoppes in Houston.

I hear they are trying to put 20 new stores in Houston - Anyone who invests in them will be bound for bankruptcy court. We are already supersaturated with cheap doughnut shops. Of course FranWad investors probably won't catch on to that. They can sell 'em on the representation - true - that there isn't another DD shop for at least 5 miles. But - Hey - they're still holding Quiznos franchise "fairs" - what a word to use in connection with Quiznos - here, and folks are still lining up for them. The only reason there are so many Quiznos shops is that they are such a great investment - right?--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Never heard of 123-Fit by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sun, 2008/06/22 - 16:27.

I never heard of 123-Fit...I mean I have not seen one where I live...hum maybe I should get a franchise....heck no! As for Curves, I can't say its good or bad. There is one right down the street where I live from, less than a mile, but I prefer to drive 3.5 miles and go Jazzercise! This is the only excercise program I have been able to stick too! I have been to several gyms, and I get bored to death! If I want to walk on a treadmill, I use my own. If I want to use weights, I use my own...the truth is that all I want to do is have fun exercising...and Jazzercise does the work for me! No I am not an instructor(franchisee)...I don't even know if they make their's money worth...all I know is that I pay my monthly fee and go to as many classes as I want...I can 6 days a week, which includes Saturday's...I love it!

Never Heard of 123 Fitness? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/10/10 - 23:25.

There are plenty of unsatisfied franchisees who wish they could say the same about 123 Fitness and the rest of the franchises owned by (p)Rick and Dick Schaden. Of course there's the Queen of fast food rip-offs Quiznos, the latest hamburger ripoff call Smashburgers, and a Smoothie franchise that God only knows the name of. They all have the same thing in common, franchisees that have lost everything to feed the greed of the Schadens.

Froots by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Sat, 2008/10/11 - 03:07.

I don't know if the Schaden's are involved. The man who helped or should I say didn't help us with our 123 Fit left and became CEO of a franchise named Froots. Why would you know about 123 Fit, there are only 28 across the country? Their still trying to brand the name. Many former 123 Fit people have commented on site's like this in hopes that the public will think twice before doing business with this franchise. I can't believe he sends my husband e-mails about Froots. It is a smoothie place.

123 Fitness and Froots by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/10/11 - 09:12.

It's well known within the Quiznos community that the Dicks are the one who invested the money to start 123 Fitness and some of these other franchise systems. They've simply shifted many of the rats that stole from Q franchisees to staff these other franchise systesm, using the business model developed at Q to financially and emotionally destroy those franchisees. The modus operendi is always the same. A high franchise fee, a high royalty, a high advertising fee, outrageous prices for everything in the system, from architectural plans, to equipment, to leases. You have no protected territory and no control over how your ad money is spent. In every case the Schaden created franchise system gets big money from vendor and landlord kickbacks. Then they start sending out the predatory coupons to pump up sales but not profits, paid for with your ad money. At the end of the day the franchisee is left with nothing but used equipment while being blamed by this scum for not running a good operation. For many years the Schadens were able to operate under the radar. In 2008 their operation is an open book. Anyone who invests in a Schaden owned franchise system has been warned.

www.curves4sale.com by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/06/27 - 21:50.

I have a great resource site for people wanting to learn about Curves. Check it out! www.curves4sale.com

Re: www.curves4sale.com by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Mon, 2008/10/13 - 09:22.

For heaven sakes stay away from this known snake oil salesmen!!!! Tommy boy is as crooked as they come in my opion. He need to crawl back under the rook he came out of.

The idea of making the exercise experience "fun" - - by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sun, 2008/06/22 - 16:53.

adding social dimensions to it, is about the brightest notion I have heard on the subject in a very long time.

My vision of a workout place if a bunch of folks using machines and hooked up to ear pieces - - no social interaction at all - - unless there is some group exercise like you just described.

Maybe I'm just old and out of touch - - only us old farts want to interact with other people in such situations. At your age group that's probably called loser workouts.--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

I am only 36 yrs old by yamirodz

Submitted by yamirodz on Sun, 2008/06/22 - 17:04.

Well I don't know if I am an "old fart" buy I am only 36...eventhough people think I am between 29 and 30...they never get it right! Like I said, if I have to walk into a place and see people excercising with a look on their face as to "I can't wait to get off this treadmill"...I just can't be there. Maybe other people might say, "well I go to they gym or to curves, or whereever to stay in shape, not to be a social butterfly...well don't get me wrong. When I go to my Jazzercise class" I say hi to the ones I already know, chat a little before the instructor start, and then get right down to business for an hour of fun, dancing, cardio!!!! I kept the pounds off, and quite proud of myself that I only weigh 101 pounds...I'm petite so I look cute!

Exception by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sun, 2008/06/22 - 21:42.

>>I kept the pounds off, and quite proud of myself that I only weigh 101 pounds...I'm petite so I look cute!<< Now, if you weren't a guy, that would be great!

Exception by yamirodz

Submitted by yamirodz on Mon, 2008/06/23 - 00:52.

I am a girl...hehehhhe!

I know by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Mon, 2008/06/23 - 05:46.

101 lb men aint cute--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Lord knows, we need more by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sun, 2008/06/22 - 23:48.

cute folks in here on BMM. I am really certain that if those who are really cute would spend more time here, including the posting of pictures, BMM would become a much more popular place for the discussions that take place here.

I can't help it that I'm a guy.--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Curves for Sale by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/05/28 - 22:39.

Many locations are for sale because the owners have been running their facilities for years, and they are exhausted. If you have ever owned your own business, nomatter what it is, you can understand this. The fitness industry, in itself, is very challenging because people want an easy fix. Instead of giving 100% effort, they blame the program. There is nothing wrong with the Curves program. The machines are hydraulic, so you get out of it what you put into it. The workout is for women of all fitness levels.

Re: Curves for Sale by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 18:46.

Thank you I so agree with you, I was searching sites, because myself, I am thinking of purchasing a Curves Gym, I have been working for the health and fitness field for almost 15yrs and I love it, and its not Gary's fault if a franchisee business fails, its their own.. He gives them all they need with training and help. I currently work at a Curves. So I DO Know this .. For all the ones out here talkin bad about him, if you are some that have or had a Curves, You know its your own fault you didnt make it.. Its all in what you put in your gym.. You have to have the heart, to beable to help others.. Not just lookin to make money that will come with time.. You need to have that desire to Want to help change peoples lives, for the better.. Help them lower Blood pressure, cholestrol, diabetes, asthma, wt loss, gain strength, more energy, less stress, etc... So just to name a few.. for all of you who are sayin these terrible things about Mr. Heavin... I will pray for you .. This Curves is built on a Christian Organization.. Now they cant promise you who franchisees them out.. They may not be , although when you look to purchase one they do let it be known that they are Christians... So Please Stop down grading him and calling him names that he is definitely not.. He is a Blessing to have made Curves and has helped to save sooo many lives, and I know have help sisters, mothers, grandmothers,wifes, to better themselves for the best, helped mothers to beable to be here long enough to watch their young grow up and beable to keep up with them. Help grandmothers to beable to play with their grandchildren and so on and so on... So please ask God for forgiveness and Stop downgrading a wonderful blessing to many... May God Bless you all

It was written: Many by FuwaFuwaUsagi

Submitted by FuwaFuwaUsagi on Mon, 2008/10/13 - 14:06.

It was written:

My reply:

Actually I cannot. And I have owned and still do own (in the form of partnerships) several businesses. To the best of my recollection any exhaustion I incurred was self induced by trying to reach for the brass rig off a concept or model that did not realistically support my desires. I'll admit I have done it, but once again it was because the concept I started did not match my latent desires from the onset.

So I am saying what I understand is when people enter into a concept that is not a realistic match for their return expectations then yes I suggest you may work yourself into exhaustion. But I resent the implication that this is standard business practice, or the expectation that this is what business ownership represents. My retort would be that flawed business planning results in employer exhaustion. In large part, a proven operation model would alleviate such concerns. One again this points to a flawed business model.

FuwaFuwaUsagi

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."

FuwaFuwaUsagi

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."

Curves for Sale by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/06/17 - 21:08.

The above guest must be part of the Curves "cult". Owners are not just exhausted --they are BROKE! The program is okay but young members will not stick with it as they get bored. Older members are loyal but get sick or injured and quit. New members are hard to come by--just ask most of the owners who just went through the food drive this year. Curves will stay in business but there won't be one on every corner like Starbucks anymore. They made fade out all together.

I am an independant broker not affiliated with Curves by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 19:20.

Look, belive what you want. I am not a Curves owner. I am in now way affiliated with Curves. I am not here to slam other franchises. Curves is not for everyone. Too many people thing Curves is easy. It is hard work. You can't jsut sit back and count your money. I work with failing clubs all the time. Mnay of the clubs that want to sell are failing. There are plenty of successful clubs that aren't for sale. You ahve to constantly market the location with lead boxes, flyers, press releases, health fairs, etc. If you are not passionate about fitness DO NOT BUY ONE! Passion + Hard Word = Success. Tom Garmon

Re: I am an independant broker not affiliated with Curves by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 18:51.

AMEN AMEN AMEN... you are soooo right... If you are not passionate about fitness, DO NOT BUY ONE... You definitely have to want to be there to change someones life for the better, from the inside out... Not just purchase one and think oh Im gonna make money... It doesnt work that way... You do constantly have to market, put out lead boxes, hand out flyers, health fairs, have referrals from members, which you wont get if your not running your business right.. And I know this Because I work at Curves ..

sounds liek a flawed operational model by FuwaFuwaUsagi

Submitted by FuwaFuwaUsagi on Mon, 2008/10/13 - 13:19.

It was written:

You ahve to constantly market the location with lead boxes, flyers, press releases, health fairs, etc.

My reply:

Really? Sounds to me like a flawed operational model. Most likely the only reason you need to constantly market the location is you have excess capacity, which indicates either a rollout problem or a retention problem, either one indicates a flawed operational model. There is a natural rescission rate in most businesses but if you turnover is so high that you need to constantly attract new people you either built too big, you do not have an appealing model, or your profit is based on churning membership fees. Normally you might on occasion need to run a special when you have too many people that leave at once(I once had a corporate account, where the company relocated an left many vacancies), but if you have a good referral program you should find most of those potiions filled quite readily. This really just sounds to me like another lame conpect run by people who have no clue how to operate the core business; It may simply be that success may be determined by the franchisees skill rather then execution of the operation model.

As far as "Passion + Hard Word = Success" you not related to the "Believe and succeed" guy are you?

FuwaFuwaUsagi

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."

FuwaFuwaUsagi

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."

Lead boxes, flyers,press releases, health fairs by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Thu, 2008/12/11 - 15:50.

After studying the world of franchising all fitness centers use this way of marketing. In the fitness franchise we bought they called it the, "Ray Wilson way of marketing." Only to find out that every business we went to had 24 hour fitness center lead boxes. (Well Ray Wilson was connected with 24 hour fitness.) All the fitness businesses market this way. I agree with you Fuwa that the fitness business has to continually attract new members because people quit. That is why I focused on the core members. It worked in the summer very well. When summer was over people stopped coming in. (Except for our core members.) Not enough to reach success. All the stories of fitness clubs going out of business is consistant. People need to read the stories and think really hard about opening a fitness franchise or business. You have a better chance with very low rent, no built out and charging less than $20.00 a month. I also believe that the indepentant clubs have a better chance because they wll have full control of their business. They will not have the zor having madatory purchases that gouge you because they need money. (New book-keeping system or hundreds of gym bags that you have to buy.) From my studying and reading about the fitness business people are more apt to keep their memberships if they are cheaper than $49.00. No pre-paid year contracts. Month to month for a year is the best. Regardless because many people are not disciplined or get tired of a workout I would never touch the fitness business ever again. Sad because it can be a fun business when you build a sense of community. Which I know we accomplished. I still talk to many of our members. Great people. Just not enough great people to keep the business going.

Re: sounds liek a flawed operational model by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 18:57.

You will definitely have a Great Referral rate if you are running your business right... and are caring and outgoing, and are good to your current members.. again I know this because I am doing it . And the Curves that I work for is growing on its Referrals from members already there... But we also hand out flyers and have lead boxes and do events.. That is just to help get in contact with the ones who dont have friends already in Curves and you wouldnt believe how many people out there have never heard of them... I know I know that sounds crazy with how big Curves is.. But I myself have signed up alot of ladies who have never heard of Curves so yes when we do leads and etc. its gettin the name out there... and You must Believe in your program for it to work...

Silly Idea by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 21:34.

Tom writes: "If you are not passionate about fitness DO NOT BUY ONE! Passion + Hard Word = Success."

May I be first the one to say that this is a stupid slogan.

No, a really, really stupid slogan.

Passion and Hard Work lead to bankrupcty in a broken system, a lousy demographic, or a sh***y business model.

Please come back when you want to talk with adults.

Michael Webster PhD LLB
Franchise News

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Re: Silly Idea by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Mon, 2008/10/13 - 09:27.

tom is a complete idiot and Ive had the unfortunate experence of running into him on other sites. he would know the truth if it slaped him in the face which we hear has been done many times when he drinks.

Yes, I know you too by Tom Garmon

Submitted by Tom Garmon on Sat, 2009/01/24 - 16:45.

You go by "Unhappy" on Sean trash talking gutter site franchisepick.com In case you haven't noticed there are professionals here trying to have an intelligent debate, and not call each other names. This site is no place for unprofessional conduct and to hide behind anonymous post with defaming remarks. Anyone that disagrees with you are "idiots". If Zarco and Associates aren't you need to apply for a job with them. Tom Garmon

I can relate to your feelings by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/05/28 - 22:56.

A fitness business can be busy one moment. And slow for many hours. That is how I discovered BMM. I had time to surf the internet. I haven't stopped exploring the internet.

People can be demanding and unreasonable in any business. I have experienced women crying because they had gained weight in a week when they were good. I tried to explain to them that many times when you work out and build muscle you might gain a few pounds. Muscle weighs more than fat.

When we were in business I couldn't go to both of my daughters college graduations. I feel guilty to this day. People do not realize how demanding running a business is. That is why Michael and Richard here on BMM advice people to work in the business of your choice for 6 months.

People do want an easy fix. Losing weight is a challenge and it takes great discipline. It is work. I have to admit I was a member of Curves for 3 years. Longer than any other fitness program.

CurvesSmart coming in 2008! by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/05/27 - 11:48.

Have you heard about the new CurvesSmart technology? Imagine having the world's most advanced fitness coach at your disposal. A coach who customizes workouts based on your body type and endurance and adjusts each machine's intensity to your results. This coach monitors your energy level and range of motion continuously to ensure you are achieving your personal potential. Then the coach automatically computes your workout data to produce a progress report, including the number of calories you burned and 3-D anatomical diagrams to show which muscles you've worked and how successfully. This is exactly the role of the CurvesSmart™ personal coaching system, a new technology pioneered by Curves that offers a precision-designed workout, moment to moment feedback, and progress reports to keep members motivated while they work out. It's the world's most advanced fitness technology, and it's available only at Curves. View the CurvesSmart video at curves.com.

I just went to Curves.com by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/05/27 - 12:01.

It doesn't surprise me at all. Curves had to come up with something that would adjust to your leval of fitness. One thing Curves does have is the branding of the name. They did things right from the beginning.

Curves issues are not unusual by franpro

Submitted by franpro on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 07:11.

Curves has been having growth problems for the last 2-3 years. their growth problems are:

They grew way too fast. It is very hard to keep up with the real estate portion of this type of franchise model. If a franchisor sells franchises too fast, and does not add the infrastructure required to keep up with things, there are problems. A fast growing franchisor needs to get caught up with the placement of new franchisees in their locations, before they start selling more. It is ok to slow down the sales cycle.I could go into more detail, but I have to go back to work...

Franpro

Franpro is:

Joel Libava, President Franchise Selection Specialists Inc . Cleveland, Ohio

Franpro is:

Joel Libava, President
Franchise Selection Specialists Inc.

Cleveland, Ohio

Slowing Down? by Bob Frankman

Submitted by Bob Frankman on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 09:50.

Do Diligence,

I enjoyed reading your article and your insights on what about Curves appeals to consumers.

You said that Curves is slowing down and that it "went into business with a big band and may go out with a big bang". What makes you come to the conclusion that their business is slowing down or possibly about to crash?

Does anyone know what the net franchise unit growth/loss is for Curves these past few years?

Bob by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 20:23.

Bob the reason I wrote this article is because I believe the 30 minute circuit workout is on it's way out. It was a fad that attracted women with curves. Women who weren't anorexic looking. Curves was okay. Most women after a certain age their metabolism slows down.

I have heard stories of clubs closing down. People going bankrupt because they couldn't make it work.

I believe in any business having them too close together for the zee is dangerous. It is just common sense that competing with the same brand especially in the fitness industry is financial suicide for the zees,

Slowing Down? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 11:56.

Here is the list of Curves franchises which are for sale by owner as listed on the Curves.com website. This information was gathered 4/22/08. This does not include any "Featured" clubs for sale. Wonder why so many are for sale. Also, many more have closed their doors forever. The List: Sundre, Alberta 59,000.00 Sundre AB Drumheller N/A Drumheller AB Gibbons/Bon Accord, Alber N/A Gibbons AB Calgary, Alberta Panorama N/A Calgary AB Cold Lake 120,000.00 Cold Lake AB Calgary Ranchlands NW N/A Calgary AB Innisfail N/A Innisfail AB Dadeville AL $35,000.00 Dadeville AL Guntersville Al $55,000.00 Guntersville AL Scottsboro $36,000.00 Scottsboro AL Opelika $77,500.00 Opelika AL Foley, Alabama N/A Foley AL Auburn, Alabama $55,000.00 Auburn AL CENTER POINT (SHINING STA $89,500.00 CENTER POINT AL Bay Minette, AL $25,000.00 Bay Minette AL Benton, Arkansas N/A Benton AR Batesville, Arkansas $130,000.00 Batesville AR Price Reduced, Heber Spri $110,000.00 Heber Springs AR Downtown Little Rock $57,000.00 Little Rock AR Cabot AR $125,000.00 Cabot AR DeQueen, Arkansas $45,000.00 DeQueen AR Magnolia $15,000.00 Magnolia AR Curves Chander Central $175,000.00 Chandler AZ Payson, AZ $49,000.00 Payson AZ Signal Butte Mesa $70,000.00 Mesa/Apache Jct AZ Tucson, Marana $50,000.00 Tucson AZ Phoenix $99,000.00 Phoenix AZ Phoenix North Central $50,000.00 Phoenix AZ Tucson-Midvale $75,000.00 Tucson AZ Curves of Maricopa $49,900.00 Maricopa AZ Southwest Phoenix $80,000.00 Phoenix/Tolleso AZ North Northeast Scottsdal $135,000.00 Scottsdale AZ Globe/Miami, Arizona $40,000.00 190 N. Willow, AZ South Scottsdale $115,000.00 Scottsdale AZ Phoenix Ahwatukee $150,000.00 Phoenix AZ Glendale Central $5,000.00 Glendale AZ Carefree/Cave Creek, Az $135,000.00 Carefree AZ Parksville 99,000.00 Parksville BC Castlegar 99,000.00 Castlegar BC Port Coquitlam 160,000.00 2239D McAlliste BC Burnaby Central 120,000.00 Burnaby BC Curves - Enderby 93,000.00 Enderby BC Coldstream&Lumby Smart Cl 99,000.00 Coldstream/Vern BC Lake Country 140,000.00 Kelowna BC Whitehorse 140,000.00 Whitehorse BC Culver City, CA N/A Culver City CA Foxworthy, San Jose,CA N/A San Jose CA Vallejo East $150,000.00 Vallejo CA Lake Isabella $90,000.00 Lake Isabella CA Fresno - North $144,000.00 Fresno CA Morro Bay/Los Osos, CA 93 $50,000.00 Los Osos CA Fullerton South $80,000.00 217 E. Orangeth CA North Orange County N/A Brea CA Rancho Cucamonga West $150,000.00 Rancho Cucamong CA Thousand Oaks $195,000.00 Thousand Oaks CA Plumas Lake/Olivehurst $75,000.00 Olivehurst CA CORONA-WEST $52,000.00 CORONA CA Bloomington Curves $100,000.00 Bloomington CA Big Bear Lake, CA $55,000.00 Big Bear Lake CA Westlake Village CA $145,000.00 Westlake Villag CA Chester $30,000.00 Chester CA Gardena, South CA $50,000.00 Torrance CA Sunland-Tujunga CA $90,000.00 Sunland CA Calimesa - CurvesSmart Fa $155,000.00 Calimesa CA WATERFORD quick sale bo $11,500.00 Waterford CA Pittsburg, CA $75,000.00 Pittsburg CA Chula Vista Eastlake So. $35,000.00 Chula Vista CA Antioch $75,000.00 Antioch CA Fair Oaks, CA $65,000.00 Sacramento Co. CA North Torrance California $80,000.00 Torrance CA Great Club-Must Sell-Movi $40,000.00 Hayward CA los banos $55,000.00 los banos CA Thousand Oaks North $95,000.00 Newbury Park CA Granada Hills $135,000.00 PRICE REDUCED CA Healdsburg, Ca $90,000.00 Healdsburg CA San Diego/Carlsbad No. $90,000.00 San Diego/Carls CA Kerman $59,000.00 Kerman CA San Marcos-Smart Club $135,000.00 San Marcos CA San Diego/College Area $39,500.00 San Diego CA WEST HILLS $50,000.00 QUICK SALE CA Lakeview Terrace, CA $49,000.00 Lakeview Terrac CA Newport Beach, California $99,000.00 Newport Beach CA CURVES-SUN VALLEY WEST $50,000.00 SUN VALLEY CA Santa Cruz East $195,000.00 Santa Curz CA So Orange county $200,000.00 Shining Star Cl CA CurvesSmart Club-Sylmar W $70,000.00 Sylmar CA El Cerrito $100,000.00 El Cerrito CA Santa Cruz West *Shining $285,000.00 Santa Cruz CA Los Angeles, CA - Hillsid $69,000.00 Los Angeles CA MARINA, Monterey Bay Area $39,000.00 MARINA CA Chino Hills South $189,000.00 Cash flow Curve CA San Diego/Clairemont-SMAR $130,000.00 San Diego CA Superior - 1k down, 1k mo $25,000.00 Superior CO Highlands Ranch CO $92,000.00 Highlands Ranch CO Parker No & So CO-2 locat $202,000.00 Parker CO Idaho Spgs -Financing Ava $60,000.00 Idaho Spgs- OBO CO DENVER/SHERIDAN $79,755.00 DENVER CO Fort Morgan $30,000.00 Fort Morgan CO Chaffee County North/ Bue $53,000.00 Buena Vista CO Steamboat Springs $35,000.00 Steamboat Sprin CO Conifer, Colorado $39,900.00 Conifer CO Colo. Springs No. Montebe $77,000.00 Colorado Spring CO Pagosa Springs, CO $89,000.00 Pagosa Springs CO Falcon, Colorado (C Sprin $199,000.00 Falcon CO Fort Lupton, CO $100,000.00 Fort Lupton CO Alamosa $78,000.00 Alamosa CO North Metro Area $140,000.00 North Suburb CO Oxford Curves $10,000.00 Oxford CT Guilford/Madison $60,000.00 Madison CT Glastonbury, CT $55,000.00 Glastonbury CT Bloomfield $45,000.00 Bloomfield CT Enfield N/A Enfield CT Sarasota Northeast $30,000.00 Sarasota FL CENTRAL NAPLES $149,000.00 NAPLES FL Pensacola, Florida Downto $88,900.00 Pensacola FL Cape Coral Southwest N/A Cape Coral FL Miami Springs $125,000.00 Miami Springs FL North Fort Myers, FL $20,000.00 N. Ft. Myers FL Orange Park $75,000.00 Orange Park FL Pinellas Park North $47,500.00 Pinellas Park FL Dr.Phillips $63,000.00 Orlando FL Tallahassee $89,000.00 Tallahassee FL Fort Myers Shores $25,000.00 Fort Myers FL Melbourne Beach Florida $125,000.00 Indialantic FL Cape Coral Northwest $24,900.00 Cape Coral FL Port St. Lucie, FL-Southw $20,000.00 3961 SW Port St FL Tallahassee $129,000.00 Tallahassee FL Davenport Florida $75,000.00 Davenport FL Sarasota NW - Downtown $72,000.00 Sarasota FL San Pablo Jacksonville, F $109,000.00 13947-104 Beach FL Fort Myers $25,000.00 Fort Myers FL Miami - Quail Roost $35,000.00 Miami FL Gainesville West, FL $99,500.00 Gainesville FL N W Ocala Florida $70,000.00 Ocala FL Bradenton EAST $35,000.00 Bradenton FL Ft. Myers Beach $50,000.00 Ft. Myers Beach FL Citrus Park $79,000.00 Tampa FL Cape Coral Northeast $70,000.00 Cape Coral FL New Smyrna Beach Beachsid $50,000.00 419 East 3rd Av FL Palm Bay - Bayside Lakes $49,000.00 Palm Bay FL Curves of Key Largo $30,000.00 Key Largo FL Deland, Florida N/A Deland FL St. Petersburg $180,000.00 St. Petersburg FL Curves of Marathon $50,000.00 Marathon FL Crawfordville, Florida $90,000.00 Crawfordville FL Winter Garden $150,000.00 Winter Garden FL Cape Coral Northeast $70,000.00 Cape Coral FL New Port Richey, East/Nor $59,000.00 New Port Richey FL Windermere North $44,900.00 Orlando FL Oldsmar FL $42,000.00 Oldsmar FL Highland City/Lakeland $95,000.00 Lakeland FL Curves of Alachua $93,000.00 Alachua FL Yulee, Florida $87,000.00 Yulee FL Trenton, GA $52,000.00 Trenton GA Chatsworth, Ga N/A Chatsworth GA Tallapoosa GA $35,000.00 Tallapoosa GA Dawson, GA $39,900.00 Dawson GA Cumming GA $50,000.00 1595 Peachtree GA Bremen, Ga $139,000.00 Bremen GA Lawrenceville, GA West $75,000.00 Lawrenceville GA John's Creek, GA $89,950.00 Suwanee GA Villa Rica, Georgia N/A Villa Rica GA Braselton, GA $80,000.00 Braselton GA Lavonia, Ga $15,000.00 Lavonia GA Hampton $40,000.00 hampton GA Cedartown, GA $70,000.00 Cedartown GA Kailua, HI N/A Kailua HI Waikele-Waipio Hi $15,000.00 Waipahu HI Captain Cook $85,000.00 Kealakekua HI Des Moines NE $80,000.00 Des Moines East IA Chariton, IA $75,000.00 Chariton IA Lake Mills $18,000.00 Lake Mills IA Blue Grass, Iowa $42,500.00 Blue Grass IA Le Claire, Iowa $42,500.00 Le Claire IA Des Moines - Southwest $125,000.00 Des Moine - Sou IA Ankeny, Iowa $150,000.00 Ankeny IA West Liberty, Iowa $20,000.00 West Liberty IA McCall, Idaho $109,000.00 McCall ID Garden City, ID $79,000.00 Boise ID Boise North $88,000.00 Boise ID Star Idaho $70,000.00 Star ID Eagle $88,000.00 Eagle ID Orland Park, Illinios N/A Orland Park IL Niles/Morton Grove N/A Niles IL Chicago Lawn $80,000.00 Chicago IL Homewood/Flossmoor N/A Homewood IL Lake Forest/Lake Bluff $95,000.00 Lake Forest IL Hinckley,Il. $45,000.00 Hinckley IL Park Ridge, IL $60,000.00 Park Ridge IL CURVES OF DEERFIELD $75,000.00 DEERFIELD IL Batavia, IL $127,000.00 Batavia IL Mundelein East $98,000.00 Mundelein IL DeKalb, IL $109,000.00 DeKalb IL St. Louis - metroeast $21,000.00 red bud IL Chicago-Hyde Park $75,000.00 Chicago IL Indianapolis area $45,000.00 Indianapolis IN Beechgrove $140,000.00 Indianapolis IN Michigan Rd NW Indy $95,000.00 Indianapolis IN Chesterton, IN $50,000.00 Chesterton IN Broad Ripple, Indianapoli $35,000.00 Indianapolis IN Building 4 Sale 2 $35,000.00 Lake Village IN WINAMAC call now! $10,000.00 Must Sell Make IN North Vernon (Jennings Co $53,000.00 North Vernon IN Indy Warren West $45,000.00 Indianapolis IN Rensselaer N/A Rensselaer IN Plymouth N/A Make Offer IN Portland, IN $75,000.00 Portland IN Indy - Warren East $60,000.00 Indianapolis IN Avon, IN $125,000.00 Avon IN NAPPANEE $55,000.00 1401 E. Market IN N. HAMMOND/WHITING $100,000.00 Whiting IN Curves- Parsons $85,000.00 1906 Main, Ste KS Leawood - Owner to take l $59,950.00 Leawood KS West Shawnee, Kansas $98,950.00 Shawnee KS North Lexington $72,000.00 Lexington KY LEBANON $28,000.00 LEBANON KY Princeton, KY $130,000.00 Princeton KY Hopkinsville, Ky N/A Hopkinsville KY Calvert City N/A Calvert City KY Monticello $49,500.00 Monticello KY Elizabethtown, KY $275,000.00 Elizabethtown KY Hazard,KY $85,000.00 Hazard KY Versailles $88,000.00 Versailles KY Hodgenville $55,000.00 Hodgenville KY Harrodsburg KY $29,500.00 Harrodsburg KY Moss Bluff, La $75,000.00 Lake Charles LA Uptown New Orleans-Curves $185,000.00 New Orleans LA Scott $95,000.00 Scott LA New Orleans, CBD, FQ, Gar $100,000.00 New Orleans LA Port Allen $58,000.00 Port Allen LA DeQuincy, Louisiana $1.00 DeQuincy LA Southeastern Massachusett $129,000.00 Southeastern MA Lowell/North $12,000.00 lowell MA Sterling $10,000.00 Sterling MA Curves for Women $97,000.00 Marshfield MA Tyngsborough/Dunstable $20,000.00 Tyngsborough MA Palmer Curves $45,000.00 Palmer MA Middleton, MA $59,900.00 Middleton MA Burlington, MA $125,000.00 Burlington MA Merrimack Valley Curves $40,000.00 Methuen MA Melrose, MA $45,000.00 Melrose MA Worcester So east $39,900.00 Worcester MA Beausejour 130,000.00 Beausejour MB Dauphin, Manitoba 135,000.00 Dauphin MB STONEWALL MANITOBA 100,000.00 STONEWALL MB Winninpeg-River Heights 8 N/A Winnipeg MB Bel Air East, Maryland w $95,000.00 Bel Air MD Waldorf $195,000.00 Waldorf MD Taneytown $99,000.00 Taneytown MD CurvesSmart - West River/ $70,000.00 West River MD Havre de Grace/Perryville $115,000.00 1037 Pulaski Hi MD Frederick, Maryland $125,000.00 Frederick MD Frederick County $125,000.00 frederick count MD Desirable AACO! Need to s $110,000.00 Very desirable MD freeport $60,000.00 freeport ME Brunswick $99,000.00 Brunswick ME Boothbay Harbor, Maine $75,000.00 Boothbay Harbor ME Falmouth ,Maine $95,000.00 Falmouth ME Skowhegan, Maine $40,000.00 Skowhegan ME Whitehall/Montague Michig $125,000.00 Whitehall MI Orion Township, MI $79,900.00 Orion Township MI Rochester Hills, MI south $9,900.00 Rochester Hills MI Madison Hts MI $65,000.00 Madison Hts MI Fowlerville/Handy Townshi $69,000.00 Fowlerville MI Yale/Brockway $30,000.00 8264 N. Brockwa MI Gladwin Mi $49,500.00 Gladwin MI Redford - MI $49,000.00 Redford MI Curves of Sterling Hts-We $40,000.00 Sterling Height MI Birmingham/Bloomfield Tws $80,000.00 Birmingham MI Mason, MI $109,000.00 Mason MI Blissfield $55,000.00 Blissfield MI ANN ARBOR S.E. N/A 4095 . STONE SC MI Rochester Hills, MI North $79,900.00 Rochester Hills MI TAYLOR/SOUTH DEARBORN $79,000.00 TAYLOR MI Norton Shores South $85,000.00 muskegon MI Bellaire $50,000.00 Bellaire MI Shepherd/Coe Township, Mi $20,900.00 Shepherd MI Newaygo $29,500.00 Newaygo MI Brighton, michigan $99,000.00 brighton MI Dearborn North $99,000.00 Dearborn MI Carson City Curves $29,500.00 Carson City MI Southfield SW $40,000.00 Southfield MI Novi $90,000.00 Novi MI White Lake Township $85,000.00 White Lake Town MI Suttons Bay Michigan $45,000.00 Suttons Bay MI Rogers MN N/A Rogers MN Saint Francis - Must sell $25,000.00 Saint Francis MN Perham, MN N/A Perham MN Monticello MN $20,000.00 Monticello MN Foley N/A Foley MN Detroit Lakes Have Curves N/A Detroit Lakes MN Ramsey - growing area. Cu $40,000.00 Ramsey MN Crookston MN N/A Crookston MN Sartell-motivated seller $13,500.00 Sartell MN Pleasant Hill N/A Pleasant Hill MO Curves - Union, MO $129,000.00 Union MO High Ridge, MO $20,000.00 320 A Emerson R MO Wright City, MO $29,995.00 Wright City MO Price Reduced - Webster G $47,000.00 Webster Groves MO Lincoln County, MO $190,000.00 Troy MO Lee's Summit, MO South $50,000.00 Lee's Summit MO Raytown, MO N/A Raytown MO O'Fallon Northside $79,900.00 O'Fallon MO Peculiar, MO N/A Peculiar MO University City, MO $25,000.00 University City MO Warrenton, MO $43,000.00 Warrenton MO Mount Vernon $45,000.00 Mount Vernon MO Lake St. Louis $89,900.00 Lake St. Louis MO St. Charles $80,000.00 St. Charles MO ST. CHARLES-N (225 member $40,000.00 St. Charles MO Price Reduced - Clayton-B $47,000.00 Maplewood MO Gulfport, MS, South $105,000.00 Gulfport MS southaven/goodman rd $55,000.00 southaven MS Saltillo, MS $44,900.00 Saltillo MS Billings Montana West $280,000.00 Billings MT Bouctouche/Richibucto 25,000.00 Bouctouche NB Winston-West $125,000.00 Winston-Salem NC High Point North $95,000.00 High Point NC Troy/Biscoe $55,000.00 Biscoe NC Asheville/Hendersonville N/A Hendersonville NC Pink Hill $55,000.00 Pink Hill NC Flat Rock, NC N/A Flat Rock NC Fort Mill SC $55,000.00 Fort Mill SC NC Currituck County $54,000.00 Moyock NC Statesville $86,000.00 Statesville NC Morrisville $49,900.00 Morrisville NC Knightdale, NC $155,000.00 Knightdale NC Kings Mountain, N.C. $120,000.00 Kings Mountain NC Calabash $110,000.00 Calabash NC Southeast Greensboro $75,000.00 Greensboro NC Beulah/Hazen, ND N/A Hazen ND Blair, NE/ Shinning Star $125,000.00 Blair NE Merrimack $85,000.00 Merrimack NH Bedford Curves $75,000.00 Bedford NH 35 members pay the rent!! $55,000.00 Mercer - nice!! NJ Vernon-MAKE OFFER $49,000.00 Glenwood VERNON NJ Burlington Co-CurvesSmart $145,000.00 Upon Request NJ Central Jersey $99,000.00 Upon Request NJ club in Gloucester County $75,000.00 upon request NJ Butler/Kinnelon MUST SELL $59,000.00 Butler NJ Smart club in central NJ $95,000.00 upon request NJ Lower Township NJ /OBO $59,000.00 3704 Bayshore R NJ Woodbine/Dennis Twp/OBO $44,000.00 Ocean View NJ 68 Members Pay the Rent! $40,000.00 Bergen County-H NJ Rutherford $60,000.00 Must Sell! NJ Neptune $108,000.00 Neptune NJ Nothern NJ $45,000.00 Belleville NJ Somers Point- Smart Club $75,500.00 Somers Point NJ Cherry Hill NJ $19,000.00 Cherry Hill NJ Collingswood $105,000.00 Collingswood NJ Gallup, NM $165,000.00 Gallup NM Aztec/Bloomfield $50,000.00 Aztec NM Universitysouth $87,500.00 Albuquerque NM Pictou Nova Scotia Canada 35,000.00 Pictou NS CARSON CITY, NV $45,000.00 CARSON CITY NV Winnemucca $145,000.00 Winnemucca NV Malta $23,000.00 Malta NY Orange County $55,000.00 Orange Cty. NY westchester county $174,000.00 yonkers NY Troy NY $29,900.00 Troy NY Cheektowaga, NY NW $65,000.00 Cheektowaga, NY Sayville, New York $65,000.00 Sayville NY Nassau County/ Sea Cliff/ $125,000.00 40 Railroad Ave NY Curves Bensonhurst $99,000.00 Brooklyn NY Curves of Mount Vernon $99,500.00 Mount Vernon NY Schenectady, NY $280,000.00 Schenectady NY Cheektowaga, NY NE $40,000.00 Depew NY Bath Township $67,000.00 Bath NY East Elmhurst $70,000.00 Jackson Heights NY Middle Island $42,000.00 Middle Island NY Aurora/East Aurora/Elma $45,000.00 East Aurora NY 200 members $35,000.00 ORANGE COUNTY NY Brooklyn, NY $15,000.00 Brooklyn NY Otsego/Hartwick/Middlefie $68,800.00 Cooperstown NY Putnam County $128,000.00 Brewster NY Farmingdale $119,000.00 Farmingdale NY Albany North, NY $70,000.00 22A Colvin Ave NY Lyons/Arcadia $69,900.00 Newark NY LaGrange $37,000.00 LaGrangeville NY Streetsboro, Ohio $20,000.00 Streetsboro OH Elyria - West $40,000.00 1599 West River OH Eaton $67,200.00 Eaton OH Monfort Heights $150,000.00 Cincinnati OH Sandusky $79,000.00 Sandusky OH Mount Gilead, OH $90,000.00 Mount Gilead OH Grafton, Ohio $16,000.00 Grafton OH New Lexington, OHio $25,000.00 New Lexington OH Mansfield-East $50,000.00 Mansfield OH Mount Vernon $169,000.00 Mount Vernon OH Amelia, OH $97,000.00 Amelia OH South Point, OH $30,000.00 South Point OH Findlay,Ohio $69,000.00 Findlay OH upper Sandusky N/A Upper Sandusky OH Grandview Heights, OH $90,000.00 Columbus OH Huron $19,000.00 Huron OH Landen / Mason, OH $47,000.00 Landen OH Baltimore/Liberty Ohio $42,000.00 Baltimore OH Ross Township $75,000.00 Hamilton OH Twinsburg $120,000.00 Twinsburg OH Norwalk $39,000.00 Norwalk OH Delhi Township $40,000.00 Cincinnati OH Curves at Mayfair $80,000.00 Oklahoma City OK Muswellbrook/Scone 125,000.00 Muswellbrook OK ARDMORE $35,000.00 Ardmore OK Idabel Curve's $25,000.00 Idabel OK McAlester $35,000.00 McAlester OK Glenpool, Oklahoma $35,000.00 Glenpool OK Coweta, Oklahoma $40,000.00 Coweta OK Pickering South (Smart) 109,000.00 Pickering ON Hawkesbury - 350+ Members 80,000.00 Hawkesbury ON Pickering North-Smart-S S 309,000.00 Pickering ON Alexandria, Ontario, Cana 86,900.00 Alexandria ON Angus (Smart, Stretcher) 135,000.00 Angus ON Richmond Hill Central 152,000.00 Richmond Hill ON Welland, Ontario 129,900.00 Welland ON ParrySound Smart Streter 145,000.00 Parry Sound ON Caledonia, Ontario 99,000.00 Caledonia ON Rockland 380 + Members / 100,000.00 Rockland ON Cambridge - Preston 110,000.00 Cambridge ON Markham N.E. 299,000.00 Markham ON Port Colborne, Ontario 44,900.00 Port Colborne ON Smithville, Ontario 58,000.00 Smithville ON Port Perry Ontario 165,000.00 Port Perry ON Cochrane Shining Star 34,900.00 Cochrane ON Nepean South-Barrhaven (S 100,000.00 Nepean ON Napanee 69,900.00 Napanee ON Brampton South (CurvesSma 180,000.00 Brampton ON Ottawa Carling-West (Curv 174,900.00 Ottawa ON Mississauga East N/A Mississauga ON Gananoque 99,900.00 Gananoque ON Clinton, ON Canada 140,000.00 Clinton ON Richmond Hill South 97,500.00 Richmond Hill ON Aylmer, Ontario (price re 78,000.00 Aylmer ON Wilsonville, OR $195,000.00 Wilsonville OR Canby Oregon $175,000.00 Canby OR Reedsport/Winchester Bay $12,500.00 Reedsport OR Downtown Portland Homeste $195,000.00 Portland OR Tualatin $142,000.00 Tualatin OR _All offers considered - N/A Browns Plains/R OT Yamba 240,000.00 Yamba OT Liverpool NSW 175,000.00 Liverpool OT Noosa Heads 40,000.00 Noosa Heads OT BRISBANE - Lutwyche 99,000.00 BRISBANE OT Mount Gambier, Sth Aust.; 150,000.00 Mount Gambier-S OT Campbeltown SA N/A Campbelltown OT CROWS NEST, Sydney N/A Sydney OT Campbelltown NSW 327,000.00 Sydney OT Swansea - Newcastle 100,000.00 Swansea OT algester 33,000.00 Brisbane OT Cedritos 45,000.00 Bogota OT Bundall/Broadbeach 180,000.00 Gold Coast, ALD OT Cuernavaca, Vista Hermosa 55,000.00 Av. Rio Mayo 10 OT westhill aberdeen 65,000.00 aberdeen OT Melbourne Suburbs 250,000.00 Melbourne OT Chippenham,Wiltshire UK 95,000.00 Chippenham OT SOLD N/A Kyabram OT Caloundra 75,000.00 Currimundi OT North Ipswich 170,000.00 Ipswich OT curves petersfield N/A petersfield OT Shepparton 140,000.00 Shepparton OT Ramat Aviv IL 130,000.00 Ramat Aviv OT Melrose Park South Austra N/A Melrose Park OT Robina 195,000.00 Varsity Lakes OT West End/Woolloongabba 100,000.00 Brisbane OT Warners Bay 150,000.00 Warners Bay OT 3 gyms: Queretaro 200,000.00 Queretaro OT Hornsby, NSW 145,000.00 Asquith, NSW OT Wangaratta 110,000.00 Wangaratta OT Kempsey 160,000.00 Kempsey OT Mount Isa N/A Mount Isaq OT Strathpine, Pine Rivers N/A Strathpine OT Nowra 170,000.00 Nowra OT Dalby QLD (SALE pending) 135,000.00 Dalby OT Mornington N/A Mornington OT Hampton Park N/A Hampton Park OT Melksham, Wiltshire 85,000.00 Melksham OT Altona 75,000.00 Altona North OT Aspley Brisbane Australia 125,000.00 Brisbane OT Lomas de Chapultepec 160,000.00 mexico city OT Singleton 85,000.00 Singleton OT POTCHEFSTROOM, South Afri 125,000.00 Potchefstroom OT Bosques de las Lomas 150,000.00 mexico city OT Redcliffe 150,000.00 Redcliffe/Brisb OT Albury 135,000.00 Albury OT Canberra - Weston ACT 195,000.00 Canberra OT Narre Warren N/A Narre Warren OT Kallangur 140,000.00 Brisbane OT Kenmore 120,000.00 Brisbane OT Maroochydore 75,000.00 Maroochydore OT Tecamachalco 80,000.00 mexico city OT Echegaray 100,000.00 mexico city OT San Angel 150,000.00 mexico city OT Didcot, Oxfordshire 75,000.00 Didcot OT Springfield Qld 50,000.00 Springfield OT Stratford-upon-Avon 60,000.00 Stratford-upon- OT Goulburn 305,000.00 Goulburn OT Ashbourne, Co Meath 150,000.00 Ashbourne OT Abingdon, Oxfordshire 90,000.00 Abingdon OT Haywards Heath, Sussex 70,000.00 Haywards Heath OT Neos Kosmos, Athens, Gree 70,000.00 Neos Kosmos, At OT Wodonga 119,000.00 Wodonga OT Cronulla N/A Sydney OT Windsor/Richmond N/A Sydney/Windsor OT SYDNEY - CHATSWOOD N/A Sydney - Chatsw OT Wynnum Brisbane Australia 235,000.00 Brisbane OT Curves of East Allen/Moor $35,000.00 bath PA Scottdale & (3) Twps N/A Scottdale PA Connellsville, City & Twp N/A Connellsville PA NE Philadelphia N/A philadelphia PA Swatara Township/Derry St $27,000.00 Harrisburg PA Wrightstown/Upper Makefie $35,000.00 Wrightstown PA Martinsburg, PA $40,000.00 Martinsburg PA Upper Gwynedd / North Wal $50,000.00 103 East Walnut PA Spring Township, PA $75,000.00 Wyomissing PA Pittsburgh - Squirrel Hil $100,000.00 Pittsburgh PA Kane $15,000.00 Kane PA Moon Township, PA $70,000.00 Moon Township PA Lower Salford N/A Lederach PA East Allentown $85,000.00 Allentown PA Murrysville, Pa $79,900.00 Murrysville PA East Hempfield Township $22,000.00 Lancaster PA Butler City/Township N/A Butler PA Quakertown, PA $30,000.00 Quakertown PA South Fayette/Bridgeville $75,000.00 Bridgeville PA Lower Moreland N/A Huntingdon Vall PA Manheim Township $12,000.00 Lancaster PA N. Catasauqua $60,000.00 Catasauqua PA N Beaver/Mah twp/Bessemer $30,000.00 Edinburg PA Tamaqua/Walker Township/S $29,900.00 Tamaqua PA clarion $25,000.00 Clarion PA pierrefonds 200,000.00 Pierrefonds QC Vaudreuil-Dorion 100,000.00 Vaudreuil_Dorio QC Cote St Luc, Montreal,Que N/A montreal QC St. Laurent 50,000.00 Montreal QC Ile Perrot N/A ile perrot QC Brossard South (email for 34,900.00 Brossard QC Laval 148,500.00 Laval QC Westmount, Montreal,QC N/A Montreal QC Lincoln Rhode Island $125,000.00 Lincoln RI Pawtucket Rhode Island $100,000.00 Pawtucket RI Richmond $25,000.00 Richmond RI Charleston $69,500.00 Charleston SC Boiling Springs, SC N/A Boiling Springs SC Beautiful, bright & sunny $35,000.00 Blacksburg SC Georgetown, SC $119,000.00 Georgetown SC Fort Mill SC $55,000.00 Fort Mill SC SC Hilton Head Island N/A Hilton Head SC Columbia Northeast, SC $140,000.00 Columbia SC Liberty, SC N/A Liberty SC Blythewood $30,000.00 Blythewood SC Lake Wylie, SC $80,000.00 Lake Wylie SC North Myrtle Beach, SC $120,000.00 Longs SC Sioux Falls - Southeast N/A Sioux Falls SD White City/Emerald Park 99,000.00 Emerald Park SK Dunlap, TN $61,000.00 Dunlap TN OAKLAND $40,000.00 OAKLAND TN Clarksville - Sango $150,000.00 Clarksville TN Cleveland, TN $195,000.00 Cleveland TN Hermitage,TN - REDUCED $52,000.00 Hermitage TN Smithville, TN $60,000.00 Smithville TN Maryville, TN $145,000.00 Maryville TN Waverly, TN $45,000.00 912 W Main Stre TN West Knoxville N/A Knoxville TN Madison/Rivergate, TN $199,000.00 Madison TN Savannah, TN $139,900.00 SAVANNAH TN Manchester $100,000.00 Manchester TN Erin, TN $65,000.00 Erin TN White County N/A Sparta TN LaVergne, TN $135,000.00 LaVergne TN South Knoxville N/A Knoxville TN Dickson $150,000.00 Dickson TN Selmer, TN $75,000.00 Selmer TN MAKE OFFER - WANT TO SELL $58,000.00 WAXAHACHIE TX Bay Area $100,000.00 Clear Lake TX Curves West Houston $65,000.00 Houston TX Carrollton $95,000.00 carrollton TX NW Crossing Curves Smart $84,900.00 Houston TX El Paso-NorthEast $134,000.00 El Paso TX Roanoke,TrophyClub,West L $75,000.00 Roanoke TX Pittsburg, Texas N/A Pittsburg TX Saginaw/Blue Mound; DOUBL $70,000.00 Saginaw TX Marble Falls/Kingsland $115,000.00 Marble Falls TX Sweetwater, TX $35,000.00 Sweetwater TX Harker Heights - Curves S $225,000.00 Harker Heights TX El Paso, TX- Zaragosa (Ne $85,000.00 1320 N. Zaragos TX Mesa-Westover Hills N/A Austin TX Houston Southeast /Curves $119,900.00 Houston TX Burkburnett Texas $100,000.00 Burkburnett TX Littlefield, Texas $35,000.00 Littlefield TX Encino Park $60,000.00 San Antonio TX Marshall, TX w/Stretch Ma $65,000.00 Marshall TX Corpus Christi-Padre Isla $50,000.00 Corpus Christi TX Dallas-NW(MOTIVATED SELLE $110,000.00 Dallas TX NW249 - CurvesSmart $89,900.00 Houston TX Hereford, TX $80,000.00 Hereford TX Snyder, TX $35,000.00 Snyder TX Brownsville, Texas - East $34,900.00 Brownsville TX Canton TX-All offers cons $110,000.00 Canton TX McKinney-TX SW (Price Red $55,000.00 McKinney TX Killeen - Curves Smart $265,000.00 Killeen TX New Boston Texs $120,000.00 New Boston TX CURVES SMART-Westlakes N/A San Antonio TX Austin - profitable club! $40,000.00 Austin TX Commerce,Texas $30,000.00 Commerce TX CurvesSmart Medical Cent $70,000.00 San Antonio TX Denton West/corinth (Smar N/A Denton TX Southside $13,500.00 San Antonio TX Jersey Village $95,000.00 Jersey Village TX San Antonio - North Centr $55,000.00 San Antonio TX Bulverde $50,000.00 Spring Branch TX WEATHERFORD, TX $58,000.00 Weatherford TX North Oak Cliff $55,000.00 Dallas TX Cedar Park/Leander $75,000.00 Cedar Park TX Crosby $110,000.00 Crosby TX Midlothian,Tx. Low overhe $89,900.00 Midlothian TX Kaysville, Utah $140,000.00 123 W 320 N UT Reduced Price-Tooele, Uta $120,000.00 Tooele UT St. George, UT $145,500.00 St. George UT Santa Clara/Ivins, UT $98,500.00 St. George UT clinton,utah N/A Clinton UT Farmington Utah $55,000.00 Farmington UT Salt Lake Avenues-reduced $100,000.00 Salt Lake City UT North Ogden/Harrisville, $99,000.00 North Ogden UT Curves - Richmond N/A Richmond VA Luray N/A Luray VA Marion Virginia $40,000.00 Marion VA Farmville, Virginia N/A Farmville VA Woodstock, VA N/A Woodstock VA Chantilly VA $65,000.00 Chantilly VA Gate City Va N/A Weber City VA Big Stone Gap VA N/A Big Stone Gap VA Vergennes, VT $45,000.00 Vergennes VT Deer Park, WA $75,000.00 Deer Park WA Ellenbrook 225,000.00 Ellenbrook WA Yacolt/ Amboy WA N/A Amboy WA Skamania/Stevenson $89,000.00 Stevenson WA Bellevue - Profitable & G N/A Bellevue WA King County N/A King County WA Port Townsend, WA $35,000.00 Port Townsend WA Parkland N/A Tacoma WA Holmen $112,900.00 Holmen WI Mukwonago N/A Mukwonago WI Verona, WI $29,900.00 Verona WI Hartford/Wisconsin $50,000.00 Hartford WI Oregon,WI N/A 852 Janesville WI Richland Center Curves $45,000.00 Richland Center WI Madison-North $65,900.00 Madison WI Brown Deer, WI $50,000.00 Brown Deer WI Eagle River $69,000.00 Eagle River WI Omro, Wisconsin $30,000.00 107 W Main St WI Minocqua/Woodruff N/A Woodruff WI Barboursville, WV $35,000.00 Huntington WV Hurricane $45,000.00 Hurricane WV Hot Springs, Wy $15,000.00 THERMOPOLIS WY You can draw your own conclusions. I would recommend going with a franchise with scientifically proved results for its members. Regards.

Whitehorse by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/09/23 - 14:17.

FYI to the poster...Whitehorse id NOT on BC it is in the Yukon Territory! I hope the website has it listed properly!!!

My Concern by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 20:54.

That number doesn't include the stores trying to sell without the franchisors' help or the ones that have given up any thought of selling. My concern as a potential investor isn't the number or percentage, it's what the owners are asking for. If the asking price is less than the build-out cost plus a nice profit than the chain has a big problem. And this chain has a problem.

I had heard the original founder of Curves by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 21:02.

has been ill. Is this true? I read his book and enjoyed it. Could this be the reason why Curves is having problems? Who is running Curves now?

7% of Curves Units Now Being Sold by Juan F

Submitted by Juan F on Thu, 2008/04/24 - 02:27.

Experts, help us out.

There are 654 Curves being sold on the list above from Curves.com out of roughly 9,000 Curves franchises. That's roughly 7% of the network that is listed for sale.

Is this a good or bad sign?

Re: 7% of Curves Units Now Being Sold by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 19:07.

Its not Curves fault that they are saling... Its the owner of that particular Gym... They are not dedicated to it anymore ... It takes Alot of commitment... And one the of Curves on that list I actually work for and they are not saling... She had it up once before But its not for sale now ...She kept it and were doing great...

It depends... by Dan Maizner

Submitted by Dan Maizner on Thu, 2008/04/24 - 11:52.

I hate receiving the answer of "it depends" and answering a question with questions but, without more specifics, the answer to your question is: it depends.

We need more detail in order to determine whether this is a "good" or "bad" thing. For instance:

1) At what price basis are these centers being offered for sale? Is the pricing based on a healthy/above avg. industry multiple of earnings? Are they all fire sales?

2) What do the micro and macro markets look like for this service? What stage is the industry in? What is the macro view of this industry/niche?

3) What are the firmographics of the units for sale versus the ones not for sale? Can any pattern be discerned? Ex: Units over 2+ years make up 90% of those for sale, etc. Are these all zees with FA's about to expire, etc.?

4) Last, what are the historical, present, and predicted future trends? Is churn 7% now, but down from 25%? Did it go from 1% to 7% in the last 3 months, etc?

IMHO - Asking for an "expert" opinion based on providing this level of data (7 of every 100 businesses in a given chain) will not yield a useful response. Dig deeper and then share what you find.

Any system has churn and churn can happen due to a variety of factors. Many can argue what "healthy/natural" churn rates are but you need to get past the general statistics and examine the root causes and the detail inside - mine for depth. Follow?

7% being sold by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Thu, 2008/04/24 - 11:29.

That list does not include the "featured" clubs for sale, only for sale by owner. Also, to be more accurate, out of the total number sold there are ones which have closed.

Mr. Blue Mau Mau by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 22:02.

I should of got this information. I didn't have to write a blog.

If this is a 123 fit rep. post your monthly reports. They have been disappearing. Even with your bogus scientifically proven results. At least Curves sold many clubs. You haven't even sold a thumb print of clubs as Curves has. I have to say Curves has had a good run as far as business.

Curves I believe had success because they didn't gouge their zees. Think about that real hard. It may be over your heads. Because anything associated with Q is about greed and not seeing their zees become successful.

Reply to "Mr. Blue Mau Mau" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 22:02.

I am not a 1-2-3 Fit rep., but who cares if the reports are disappearing. I don't understand what you mean. Are you claiming that ACE and Swedish Hospital together posted "bogus scientifically proven results." ? This is a rather bold thing to state, be prepared to back up your "bogus" claim. Please enlighten us as to what is "bogus" about the study. If 1-2-3 Fit is newer to the scene than Curves, it makes sense they would have fewer locations sold. Nobody questions how many have been sold by either company, as it is not the lone indicator of success. One can easily find Curves owners who are upset, just call some of the ones which closed or are for sale. They will tell you horror stories as well. You can find good and bad in any franchis, Curves, 1-2-3 Fit, Quiznos, even McDonalds franchisees who are unhappy. As far a gouging goes, if some 1-2-3 Fits are making it while paying large fees, it stands to reason they must be making good money to afford to pay it and still stay open! Thanks for proving my point. Why are you so bitter? You sound like Obama sometimes!!!

I have spoken with many 1-2-3 Fit franchisees, and... by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 08:36.

they aint makin it. Those who are still paying are, in many cases, working other jobs to keep body and soul together,

Soon, hopefully, they will come to realize that they are whipping a dead horse. Then they will do what is required to liberate themselves from this awful relationship.--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Reply "I have spoken with many 1-2-3 Fit franchisees, and..." by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 11:56.

Have you only spoken to ones who are not making it. What about the ones who are? Also, I dont expect anybody to be profitable in their first few years, let alone year one. Any business which is new and just starting out needs time to ramp up and build their business. Nobody has made any claims as to the timeline to make a profit, as we dont suspect they can. It seems to us that most people here are negative. Rather than focus on why they failed and offering solutions, most just are in the bashing mode of their respective franchisors. We try to share our information, backed up with fact, and only ask for the same in return. Do Dil just bashes without backing anything up. It is precisely this backing up with facts which can help others avoid similar mistakes. We are just looking to make the most informed decision possible. Regards.

You do your due diligence by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:46.

My first advice to you is work in one for two months or three. This advice will show you what is going on while running a 123 fit. Don't let me make your decision. You find out for yourself. It sounds like you are at the stage of looking at the dream and not reality. That is what the sales person, corporation will play on.

The information about the study was told to me by a person who was there. I promised not to tell who it is. All I kinow is Curves took 123 fit to court. I have no inside information about this court case. Now Curves claims their circuit burns as many calories as 123 fit.

I did talk to the ones they said were making it. There is not too many. I understand they changed quite a bit. At what expense? Many people's lives.

Reply "You do your due diligence" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 15:34.

You mention the following: "The information about the study was told to me by a person who was there. I promised not to tell who it is" Response: I am not asking for names, rather what was said which makes the study "bogus" as you stated multiple times. Please share that information. All I kinow is Curves took 123 fit to court. I have no inside information about this court case. Now Curves claims their circuit burns as many calories as 123 fit Response: How do you know Curves took them to court? Where is the information Curves is claiming their circuit burns as many calories as 1-2-3 Fit. I would love to read it! Please show us where this is located!!! Back up your information please. Don't leave us hanging. This is important stuff you have which nobody else does or seems to be able to access. You have great insider information nobody else can get. Please share, no names though, just the info.

I got it from by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 16:31.

people who are area directors. Understand if you are out to buy one they will not disclose this to you. They want you to buy.

I have driven by Curves and they now claim they burn up to 460-500 calories. I was part of Curves and if you work harder on the circuit you will burn more than someone that does it half as hard. It depends on the person in the Curves workout.

There were no other circuits at the Swedish Medical Center. If you go back in the archives of the Seattle Times the president of ACE said 123 fit is good for the time pressed. It is a good work out. I love it. No matter how much someone works out and they do not change their style of eating and follow a healthy diet they will not loose weight.

In the fitness business 70% of the members quit in a year. Therefore constant marketing is important. I know of one man who had 650 members and signed 1150 members. He still didn't make it. Call all the former franchise owners. Listen to them. People tire of the work out and move on to other things. That is why I question the clubs numbers that say they are doing so great.

We used the disk and others did too. It is easy to put numbers on paper. But will it be a reality?

On the 2006 UFOC it states 35 clubs open. They projected 190 clubs to open at the end of the year. Do they have 190 clubs? No they do not. There are 19 or 20 open and many are in trouble. Yet they still sell a system that is not proven. They will use real people to test battle their product and try to get it right. If they ever get it right. In the franchise world you have to verify all their disclosures. People are their guinea pigs.

Re: I got it from by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 19:13.

Ok I gotta say you can burn the Calories and with our new equipment CurvesSmart... You will see exactly how many you burn... And our members are not burned out or quiting , for everyone that is interested at the Curves I work at we give away shirts for every 100 workouts up to 1000 workouts just a lil motivation and they love it.. Our members are wearing 400 shirts, 500 shirts, 600 shirts... and the owner here has had this particular Curves for 5yrs... You do the math.. It all depends on your employess, and how motivated they are to help others... You do know that your members pay for motivation.. They will all tell you they have equipment at home, they have videos, and can walk, they just dont have the motivation... So please understand its the atmosphere that will keep them coming....

Reply: "I got it from" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 21:40.

"I got it from people who are area directors" Resp: What exactly did you get from people who are area directors? The study was done by ACE, it was independent of 1-2-3 Fit. Area Directors had nothing to do with the study. Get your facts right! "I have driven by Curves and they now claim they burn up to 460-500 calories" Resp: The study you refer to was done at Baylor in 2006. Here is the claim directly from that report: "...women in the Baylor study burned between 164 and 238 calories in 30 minutes. "...and the fittest subjects? They burned as many as 522 calories in 30 minutes." (Estimated based on exercising at 64 percent of maximal oxygen uptake in women with highter VO2 maximums; in other words, trained women.)" The last time I checked, Curves average person is not a trained women, rather a normal overweight/obese woman who doesn't regularly workout. In this case calories burned will be between 164 - 238 calories, far below the 500 claimed. Misleading to say the least, knowing that they do not target "trained" women. In fact, I know of several trained women who have been told by their Curves they are already fit and don't need to workout there. "There were no other circuits at the Swedish Medical Center" Resp: Correct. However, ACE did a study on the Curves circuit using the same methods for 1-2-3 Fit and they compared the data of each. Get your facts right! "If you go back in the archives of the Seattle Times the president of ACE said 123 fit is good for the time pressed" Resp: The president of ACE said nothing of the study ever. The study was overseen by Cedric Bryant, Chief Exercise Physiologist/Science Officer from ACE. Get your facts right! "In the fitness business 70% of the members quit in a year" Resp: Here is what the experts at Fitness Management have to say about attrition rates: "industry-wide attrition rates (are)in the 30 to 40 percent range, which means there is a retention rate of 60 to 70 percent." Similar experts agree that "a circuit which combines multiple machines has a higher retention rate than others." Get your facts right! "We used the disk and others did too. It is easy to put numbers on paper. But will it be a reality?" Resp: If you used the disk, you obviously didn't head its warnings. Will it be a reality? For some the answer is already yes, for others they will never know, while still others will be complete failures. Feel free to respond by backing up your statements, we have been waiting. You totally avoid answering any questions. Why? Why dont you wish to help others by telling us the facts as you know them to be?

Attrition Rates by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 19:36.

In order to be a shining star club with Curves attrition rates have to averate 5% per month. That's 60% per year. I have owned 2 8000sq/ft women's health clubs in the early 90s and I will concur with this figure. Attrition rates are far higher than 30% -40%. Look, success in the fitness boils down to two functions. Service and Marketing. Lots of both. You ahve to hustle, hustle, and more hustle. If it is your passion buy one. If you are in it for the money run like hell. People who are passionate are mostly successful. Members know they care and bring friends and the business thrives. If your heart is not in it don't buy it. If you do something you love, you'll never work another day in your life. tom@curves4sale.com

Re: Attrition Rates by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2008/11/01 - 19:30.

Amen Tom, I so agree and that is exactly how I am at the Curves I work at.. I love what I do... and what I do is help other women from the inside out... I truly believe I am there for more reasons than just money and the members will tell everyone that... They love me and I love them.. they use to think that I owned the one I work at.. but I dont... one day I would love too.. I agree Servicing and Marketing are what will keep it going along with motivation and wanting to be there and helping members to look better feel better and live longer... When they can see that you care and want to help them .. That is when they start trusting you , and they will give you BR's everyday... and if you are passionate about what you do as I am .. I dont get up feeling like I am going to work.. I love it at my Curves , the members are great.. I work with them on a daily basis, if Im not there I am callin there to make sure all is well, its kinda funny, because I am not the owner and I act like it from time to time with the calls and whats really interesting is that I will even call when the owner is there and ask how things went for her today... And see if we have any new members for me to work with the next day... Its a wonderful business to be a part of ... But again you have to love what you do and I definitely do .. I been workin in health n fitness for 15yrs now... this last year has been with Curves and I wish I would have started a long time ago... CURVES IS A BLESSING TO MANY

attrition rate question by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/07/23 - 14:12.

Hi Tom or anyone else who can help, Can you clarify for me how one calculates the attrition rate for a health club? For example, if at the beginning of the year, there are 50 members. Then throughout the year, 150 new members are added, but 85 members leave. So at the end of the year, there are a total of 115 members at the club. Does that mean the attrition rate = 85 divided by (50+150) = 42.5%? An answer to my silly question would be greatly appreciated!

In the fitness business by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 20:57.

I believe you should find a site with the lowest rent possible. Look for a newer space with very little tenant improvements. Check out how many fitness centers are around. The less the better.

Service is important. I had no problem there. My last shopping report proved that. I became friends with the members.

I loved the business. I sent out many personal notes with free week passes. My members tried to get more people in the club.

I know how to hustle. When most of your working capital was eaten up from the beginning you feel you were lied to and to keep a positive attitude was a challenge. Good zors who know how much money you had would work with you. Not take it from the beginning. They would want you to succeed. Encourage you and guide you.

Fitness will always be a passion of mine. I was a cheerleader in high school and was very active in fitness. I admit the closing of the business slowed me down a bit. I just started jogging 2 miles a day. I am still working out on my circuit. I am trying to get myself back to the way I was. I am determined nothing will destroy me. Not even doing business with a bad zor.

Quote From Cedric X Bryant (ACE) by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Thu, 2008/04/24 - 00:02.

"The 123 Fit circuit training program addressed the top reason that individuals do not maintain active lifestyles- --a perceived lack of time" said Dr.Cedric X Bryant.chief science officer for the American Council on Excercise.

Does that not mean the time pressed?

Combining strength and cardio the program meets the requirements for one to be healthy.

Another quotation in the Seattle times Pacific Northwest magazine:

Cedric Bryant's work with the Center for Cardio Vascular Wellness at Swedish Medical Center is a prime example. One room is full of exercise equipment from 123 Fit, and upstart rival of the popular Circuit-training program used by Curves For Women. Through Bryant and the exercise council, the company worked to have it's system tested at Swedish.

Physiologists ran test subjects through the circuit to get unfiltered, "oxygen up take " and caloric data. The company wants that, too,as well as the good public relations and sales it could get from potential positive results. The medical center keeps equipment that helps patients rehab for pursue perventative care. (The study ultimately found high- intensity 123 fit circuit training- workout is as or more effective than jogging or lifting weights for 30 minutes, making it a good option for the time- pressed.

This never said it was the Best 30 Minute Workout. Was it scientifically proven to be World's Best Workout? This is misleading. They never proved this with other workout's side by side. Again it is how big a person is, how hard they work out and other factors involved.

I know many people that went on to better workouts. They personally told me this. To mislead the public is wrong.

I talked to many fitness centers and they also verified the fact about 70% people drop out within a year. I do not know where you get your information. I have been studying the fitness business and have been involved with several clubs including personal trainers. It is a highly competive industry. So how does 123 fit claim 8 out of 10 come back for more?

This is hype and you and I know it. Again why is so many clubs closing? Why are very few making it? Why has most of the zees I conversed with about the biz fit disk say the disk is a bunch of garbage? Can all of us be wrong?

Curves is on it's way out? The 30 minute circuit fad is on it's way out. 123 fit is too late. Sorry. . .

You know many of the area directors get information first hand from corporate. After all they are trying to sell the clubs, right?

I could accept that if... by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:02.

the prospects were reliably set forth in the fundamental dsiclosure documents. What does the FDD say about amount of working capital? Does the FDD suggest enough working capital to finance two years to achieve breakeven? DUH!--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Reply "I could accept that if..." by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:19.

No FDD I have seen can legally set forth an amount of working capital, no more than they can guarantee you will make any money or not. It is a risk the franchisee takes. They do however, give you a business sofware which you can use to do a breakeven analysis. It has all the franchise costs, both start up and ongoing and then allows the franchisee to plug in how many members it would take to reach whatever amount of money you want to make. Eg. If you plug in 50 members it will clearly show that you will not be making any money and going in the hole. You can run multiple scenarios to see extremes of failure and success. If the franchisees use this software you can clearly see the time it takes to breakeven based on membership numbers and then see the amount of working capital one needs to meet those timelines. I feel it is a good thing they provide when you get the FDDs.

Remember by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:53.

Many members get on hold. Some never come back. People are not honorable many times. Before you open one remember that. The disk is nothing. Just talk to everyone on your UFOC. Be objective. There is a reason so many clubs closed.

Reply: "Remember" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 15:17.

I am sure some go on hold, some dont come back. As far as the disk goes, it is important if used properly, since it shows what it takes to breakeven and how many members it takes to get to certain levels. It will also show cash flow positive and negative. How come you claim it is nothing? Did you use it to run multiple scenarios, good and bad? If you had used it you would have known that it can take a bit of cash flow before breaking even. Of course there is a reason so many clubs closed. It is interesting to note that most closed in a very short period of time and had cash flow problems. Are you saying they did not give everyone this program to use? Or did they just not use it before buying a franchise to see where potential problems could be? Buyer beware is foremost in my mind when evaluating any opportunity. It seems many did not take the necessary steps to prepare themselves for what they were getting into. While the franchisor may have issues, it is utimately up to the purchaser to check everything out and perform due diligence. I find it difficult to imagine so many people who put their potential new careers into others hands without finding out everything before making the leap. I feel bad for these people.

I am sorry to say by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 17:04.

most were not informed about due diligence or a franchise lawyer. In our 2006 UFOC we did not have the rule of using their advertising. Gouging to the max. Most didn't use their advertising. If we did we would of gone under sooner. Again talking to most of the other zees they didn't use their advertising. They make their money selling franchises not seeing you be successful.

Many people by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 16:51.

who went under are successful in other fields. Some have been in sales all their lives. Just verify everything they disclose. Even Dentist and professional people have been burned in franchising. I just wish the very best for you. You sound like a realist and that is important in business. Prepare for the worst and seek a franchise lawyer. Richard Solomon is a good advisor. Good luck.

And bye the way... by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:05.

I now have 1400 BMM points. Kindley explain why they won't accept BMM points at SPEC'S Liquors!--

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

That is an accomplishment by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 12:56.

Congratulations Solomon!

The 30 minute circuit workout by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 22:23.

is on it's way out. I just don't want anyone to get hurt.

I got my information from people who were part of the study at the Swedish Medical Center.

Reply to :The 30 minute circuit workout" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 22:34.

What is your so called "expertise" to know what is on its way out or not? Are you a genie? How can people who are successful in their 1-2-3 Fit get hurt? I don't understand. Please explain. I find it amazing you can track down and find out who participated in a study done over a year ago. Typically the participants and their identities are not made public. How do you get inside access to information others dont? Assuming you did get information from these people, what exactly did they tell you which made the study invalid? Please share so that I don't make any bad decisions moving forward. Help others by sharing this information. You don't answer any of my questions, yet make many accusations which are not backed up. I have backed everything I have said. Until you choose to back up what you say with proof, everyone reading will not take you seriously. If you want to help, then back up what you say so you are credible and respond to questions on your own posting when asked!!!

You mean by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 22:41.

3 or 4 clubs out of 147 sold. Oh my god, what a proven system? I know people who were part of the study. Believe me I know.

Reply to "You mean" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 01:12.

How do you know how many are or aren't? Have you seen their financials or just "heard" about it. Typically when franchises are sold, people have the option of buying a second one at a fraction of the cost of the first. Most of these secondary ones never open. Unless you know how many are secondary, it is not a true number to compare profitable clubs to clubs which have yet to be opened. An unopened club may or may not be profitable. This is not a fair comparison. After doing some more research, the company, 1-2-3 Fit has only been around for a few years, which means most of the franchises are between one and two years old. Most businesses take 3-5 years to break even. However, you are telling me that these other failures closed well before the 3-5 year mark. They were never open long enough to realize a profit. You cant blame that on a franchisor. Anyone who does their due diligence should easily find out that it takes the average business 3-5 years to breakeven. This is business 101. If any of these locations closed in less than a year, which I know some have, they failed due to their own negligence of not having enough working capital on hand to get the business running for a long enough period of time. That has nothing to do with the franchisor being greedy as you have said. Again, you do not back up anything, why should we believe you and take you at your word? You also dont answer questions. You are being deceitful by keeping information and not being honest to those you are claiming to help. Shame on you!

Why don't you disclose by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 09:05.

3 to 5 years working capital to your future zees. They ask how much money you have or many disclosed it. I wonder why many people didn't get this information. Plus many got gouged from the beginning.

My friend that owns a Curves told me how much it cost her. Not even close to the stories from 123 fit. If 123 fit disclosed from the beginning many would of not done it. Perhaps that is why many former zees are pissed off.

The reason many Curves has less machines is because they bought what the zee could afford before they opened. As time went on they reached a leval of success then added more machines. This again showed they worked with their zees. They didn't gouge them.

I have studied almost by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 02:01.

none stop about the world of franchising. I know how the franchising industry works. I know they gouge you at the beginning. I have proof which I cannot disclose.

If this is B all I can say is I respected you. From my studying I believe you lied to me over and over. I no longer feel the same way about you. You fit in the Q world. When 123 fit folds and you see all the people hurt by all the lies, I doubt if you feel any remorse about anything. You are first a business man. I am dissappointed in you as a human being.

Many people who buy a 123 fit have not gone to college and majored in business. A good zor will direct and help their people succeed. Many of former zees felt abandoned and deceived. And rightfully so. Talk to many of the former zees they have been emotionally devasted and many financially bankrupt.

You will never be as successful as Curves. l. You gouge your clubs. In which Curves figures ways to keep their cost down. (I.E. Advertising at $1600 a month. When I took the advertising down to a printer they said it would cost $500 or $600 for the marketing you provide.) No wonder many of the zees chose not to go your route. Now the new clubs have to use your advertising. In which many professionals I counseled with, said it wasn't that great. 2. $1995 for a mascot that couldn't cost more than $300 for the company. 3.A coach station cost $3500 which was not of good guality.

Curves had the best interest of their clubs in the beginning. They were a big hit. Business goes in cycles. Curves may be at the end of their success. Perhaps there are so many other fitness centers opening up. That is the reason I believe Curves, 123 fit and many other copy cat systems will fail. I personally believe first hand a fitness business is one of the worst investments. People eventually get tired of any exercise program. Even personal training. I have had personal trainers. I have been a member of 24 hour fitness and bigger clubs.

In any fitness center it is hard to teach people to care or committ. This will always be the fitness challege.

Shame on companies like 123 fit who have hurt so many people. 123 fit is not the only fitness center that has hurt people.

I know because I have many connections in the industry. I have friends who own a Curves. I have many friends that are former 123 fit owners all over the country.

Reply "I have studies almost" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 11:33.

My husband and I got on this site to gather information and pass info along. We have learned much. Sharing informatin we have learned and passing it along. As we continue to look for a franchise we have done lots of checking with 1-2-3 Fit system and happen to personally know people who have one that works and are happy with their decision. Others we have talked to do not share the same outlook. As I have stated earlier, we are learning as much from the failures as the winners. I cannot speak for you, but in the UFOC I have it clearly states all of the costs including the $1600/mo advertising fee among others. All these costs are disclosed in the document we received, as well as listing former franchisees, which is the list I have been callin from. As an educator for many years, I am doing my due diligence and would appreciate it if you have some negatives to say that you be forthright. E.g. please share with me proof that the ACE/Swedish study was bogus as you said multiple times. If there is proof, it is something which I want to question the corp. office about. Please share details so I can make the best possible decision as we are considering this as a viable option. Regards.

Re You mean by Truth in Franchising

Submitted by Truth in Franchising on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 23:16.

I believe you DoDil. I believe that you believe that you know.

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

TIF

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

TIF

Darth by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 23:32.

Are you being sincere?

Yes I am being sincere with a tinge of sarcasm by Truth in Franchising

Submitted by Truth in Franchising on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 09:15.

Only trolls like Sleep Tight are insincere.

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

TIF

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

TIF

A tinge of sarcasm by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 09:25.

That is good for you TIf. I am proud of you.

it's past your bedtime. by Sleep Tight

Submitted by Sleep Tight on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 23:27.

wipe the Cheesy Poof crumbs off your face and get your a$$ to bed. you've got a heavy day of trolling tomorrow.

A better alternative to Curves...1-2-3 Fit!!! by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 03:20.

I agree that Curves is slowing down! The reasons are many and include the following: 1. The workout is not consistent from club to club because the machines can be different in each location. 2. None of the machines are adjustable. They assume all people are created equal. Big mistake. 3. They have no treadmills or elliptical machines to enhance cardio. 4. They have no money back guanrantee 5. They are not scientifically proven by any organization to burn more calories in a half an hour than other workouts 6. They are not co-ed, many couples enjoy working out together. Studies show that people who have workout partners stick with their workouts longer, thus getting better results. 1-2-3 Fit is a co-ed fitness center which addresses all of above problems associated with a Curves. There was even a study done at Swedish Hospital in Seattle, WA which was performed by the American Council on Exercise (ACE) which proved the 1-2-3 Fit workout to be more effective than a Curves, yoga, pilates, aerobics and weight lifting among others at burning calories and overall fitness improvements. They let you try it FREE for one week, have a 30 day money back guarantee and have coaches who have certifications which were specifically designed by ACE. In addition, they offer supplements, personal training and a online nutritional program. All this in a small club environment where the owners actually know your name and help you out! They are the BEST, much better than any Curves. If your Curves is going out of business, I suggest you join a 1-2-3 Fit club, better yet, consider buying a franchise, I know I am. My friends own one and love it. Thank you Do Diligence for pointing out to us how Curves is slowing down. Hopefully your post will help others to really see how a great club like 1-2-3 Fit can pick up all the pieces and give those Curves members a place to get a great workout!

Some member will love it by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Wed, 2008/04/23 - 09:20.

But will they stay? I loved all the work outs I did through out my life.

The zor will be okay but will you be? That is what you need to investigate. Remember skip the sales person and whatever and whoever is connected with corporate. They will tell you what you want to hear.

If you decide to open a 123 fit and your not making it I know exactly what they will say. "Other clubs are doing it." Then call the other clubs. I asure you many are hurting and barely breaking even. Do not call the clubs that claim they are successful. Or where corporate wants you to call. Call the ones they don't direct you to. There is a reason they do this.

You are wrong by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 20:58.

Curves gave me a week trial work out. As far as scientifically proven, it worked for me for 3 years.

123 fit wasn't proven with other circuits. They said it was. All they had was their circuit and took magazine articles to compare the circuit. Not exactly a fair comparison.

Good luck in buying one you will need it. Come back on BMM and learn how the 123 fit system is connected with Quiznos. Read all the sad stories. I assure you, you will regret you ever heard their name.

123 fit is really slowing down to a hault. Only 19 or 20 clubs left. I will be happy to give you names of people who will tell you their stories. Have you read the fitness magazine with the story of 123 fit owners speak out. It is called "Lights Out!" Then decide if you want to buy one. The product is never the reason to buy a franchise.

Still Curves has more that 19 clubs open. I strongly believe the fad is going out.

Reply to "You are wrong" by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 21:43.

Let's dissect your comments: 1. Curves gave me a week trial work out. As far as scientifically proven, it worked for me for 3 years. Response: In the scientific realm, one data point is never enough to be proven, either for or against. However, Curves is full of people who have been members for years, yet if you ask them how much weight they have lost, many will tell you "none." Most go for the social aspect and bragging rights to their friends and families that they "belong" to a gym. It doesnt prove results. 2. 123 fit wasn't proven with other circuits. They said it was. All they had was their circuit and took magazine articles to compare the circuit. Not exactly a fair comparison Response: ACE who perfomed the study, compared 1-2-3 Fit results with previous studies they had done with Curves, yoga, pilates, weight lifting, aerobics class and running among others. YES they DID compare it directly to a circuit, CURVES. It is extremely fair. The Chief Exercise Physiologist for ACE, Cedric Bryant, even states the results were compared to CURVES. ACE exists to prove or discredit fitness fads which is why they chose to study Curves and 1-2-3 Fit among other fitness activities. They will continue to do so. 3. Good luck in buying one you will need it. Come back on BMM and learn how the 123 fit system is connected with Quiznos. Read all the sad stories. I assure you, you will regret you ever heard their name Response: Nobody needs luck to buy a business. They just need to be financially secure, able and willing to want to own a business. I know of the Quiznos connection. I contaced a 1-2-3 Fit owner in WA who actually owns a Quiznos and also bought a 1-2-3 Fit and loves it, hardly a sad story. Why would she buy a 1-2-3 Fit if she hated Quiznos? Ask her and she says she enjoys it. Other owners who operate 1-2-3 Fits from CA, WA and FL all have positive things to say. I am sure there are people who refuse to follow the system and fail, and are then unhappy. Anytime you take thousands of businesses, eg Quiznos, you are bound to have failures and upset people. I have seen financials from several clubs and they are profitable. The question to ask of the failures is "Did they follow the system" as presented in their UFOC? I even looked at the successful owners and they spend a required amount of money on monthly marketing efforts, however, when asked the same question from the failures, the one thing they had in common was that they didn't spend the alloted amount of money each and every month in order to be successful. Interesting isn't it? I learn as much from the failures as the success stories. 4. 123 fit is really slowing down to a hault. Only 19 or 20 clubs left. I will be happy to give you names of people who will tell you their stories. Have you read the fitness magazine with the story of 123 fit owners speak out. It is called "Lights Out!" Then decide if you want to buy one. The product is never the reason to buy a franchise Response: Some will win, some will lose. I have already spoken with some of each. I have read your rants on BMM and the article you refer to. This is the same magazine which only a year earlier touted the 30 minute workout as the new fitness industry. Flip flop. I can write positive or negative stories all day long. I don't let any one source sway my decision, nor should anybody else. The product at 1-2-3 Fit works, there are successes as well as failures, you must ask which side of the aisle you choose to be on. I spoke with a club owner who has been open 4 plus years. Wouldn't they close if it were a bad investment? Most certainly the answer is yes. Buy because it is a good business decision, not the product, on this we agree. 5. Still Curves has more that 19 clubs open. I strongly believe the fad is going out While Curves has more than 19 clubs open, they have hundreds more for sale and closing. Again, we agree that Curves is on its way out, which is why 1-2-3 Fit is a better choice. Think about this, Curves uses discriminatory practices in not allowing men to join. It limits itself to approximately half of the adult population, women. Based on this fact alone, it is only a matter of time before it is saturated and failure occurs. 1-2-3 Fit does not discriminate and allows couples to workout together. A novel idea which many people I speak to absolutely love. Since there is nothing like it, there is no real competition which I know of. Please enlighten me,if you can, with another co-ed circuit club with all the amenities I have mentioned in previous replies. I challenge you to name one, just one. As a wise person once said: "If you have a fat dog, you do not get enough exercise."

Do your due diligence by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 23:33.

Killer due diligence. Work in the club in Moses Lake. Do it for 2 months and come back and tell us what you learned.

Ask them to see their books. Then proceed to do killer due diligence. Come back and everyone will tell you what this involves.

1-2-3 Fit better than Curves? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 18:51.

Uh-oh. We're waiting Do.

I agree with you by Barbara Jorgensen

Submitted by Barbara Jorgensen on Tue, 2008/04/22 - 20:26.

There is something about the Schadens they always have a good product. I loved the work out. Still do.

As far as a franchise to buy people stay away. It is financial suicide. Just like Quiznos they gouge their zees to the max. They make their money up front.

Curves is slowing doen by Dan

Submitted by Dan on Fri, 2009/08/21 - 18:49.

Curves first of all was not an ORIGINAL idea. It was a stolen one. Let's get that straigt. Google Pace exercise group, THAT was the original. With adjustable machines!

Curves won't be around in 5 years and if it is, there wont be many for a few reasons.

The circuit is only good for a few months, tops! The human body will adapt. Even with curves smart, all they did was take the circuit coach and make her computerized. There is no overload of the muscles or anything. It is the same old same old and it does get boring.

Member rentention suffers because of the same old same old.

Curves has the odacity to say that their workout is approved by Baylor University because they PAID for the study! How can a company today offer a stale circuit that has non-adjustable machines for different types of bodies??

It is a cookie cutter approach that is full of lies and marketing hype.

Gary heavin markets this as his idea, little do Curves owners know he stole it and really has no clue about fitness.

Nothing here is original.

All he did was take a concept that was already in the works and changed the name from PACE to Curvs and wala people think he "invented this." Like Microsoft didnt invent the graphical unser interface, Apple did but microsoft stole the idea and ran with it. Same thing here.

Curves was a fad that started with a boom and once people figure it out it had no longevity, they got out or tried to!

When you go to club camp they tell you how it works. Sure it works. If you take a completely sedentary female in her 30's or 40's and you put her through her very first exercise program, results come fast. It has nothing to do woth "the curves workout" it has to do with basic human body adaption to early stages of exercise induced stress!

What happens after the women has lost the fat and the inches? the hydraluic resistance is not enough because it has the same weight, same reps, same circuit!

It was a money machine scheme that will soon die down significantly due to oversaturation and lack of innovation!

Its already begun.

Curves Smart is their attempt to "Frankenstein" a non adjustable workout. Interesting stuff yes, backed by exercise science NO!

I don't care if a PhD approved this workout. It was a PAID study. Anytime something is PAID for by the same company what do you expect??

curves slowing down? by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Wed, 2010/02/10 - 23:25.

While I agree with some of what Dan says about it being resistance training and the body adapts to it, I disagree with his generalization and ranting about Gary Heavin and his Baylor Univ. study. Curves is not only successful because of the resistance training, it is successful largely because it is a 30 min w/o which really does give you a full body full muscle w/o in any other gym would take you 1 hr 30 mins minimum. Ladies have little to no time left in their day for working out for 1 hr or more, they work full time, they pick the kids up drop them off at this that or the other activity and the day/evening is gone. Curves gives you that 1 1/2 hr w/o in 30 mins, and you are energized and ready for whatever comes next. You get out of the gym whatever you put into it, whether it is 30 mins or 1 hr and 30 mins, no matter what gym it is. I think Dan has a hard on about Gary Heavins and his success in promoting curves and I am willing to bet he has never done a curves w/o in his life and would challenge him to put his money where his mouth is! I have been a member since 2004 and I love my w/o as much today in 2010 as I did when I first began. I might not be skinny minny but I am healthy and more fit than some of my friends who talk about doing a w/o but never seem to get to the gym. Most women wait till they have health issues before joining any w/o club, myself included. You can do 3 30 mins sessions a week or you can do 6 30 min sessions, or you can mix this w/o with something else that gives you more cardio to get the results you desire. If you don't do the hard work it takes you will not get the results you desire no matter what club you join and that is the long and the short of it!

A smart man follows what works by Heracles McGee

Submitted by Heracles McGee on Fri, 2009/08/21 - 22:03.

"Gary heavin markets this as his idea, little do Curves owners know he stole it." You sound like a jealous competitor. Even if that is the case, there's nothing wrong in taking someone's good idea or jumping on the bandwagon. That is the name of the game with franchises.

competitor, no. I do find it by Guest

Submitted by Guest on Sat, 2009/08/22 - 10:45.

competitor, no. I do find it to be wrong to steal an idea that was somsone elses and then marekt it as your own. I think thats wrong. Im sorry. Since when is stealing ideas a good thing? No I personal trainer in home and have no competition to curves because the curves workout could never compete with a free weight workout. did you ever hear the man speak, hes a top notch salesmen and nothing more.

How can you say that about Curves when they recently by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Fri, 2009/08/21 - 21:40.

received recognition by the AAFD. Surely the AAFD would not bestow recognition for good practices upon a company such as you describe. Are you daring to contradict the awards committee of renown experts who decided to recognize Curves as an investment worthy franchise opportunity - chock a block with fairness and jolly feeling toward franchisee associations and all that other crapola that the AAFD takes into account (plus money changing hands) when deciding to bestow its covetous recognition.

You are commiting lese AAFD, Sir. How dare you?

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

you must truely live in a by Dan

Submitted by Dan on Thu, 2009/08/27 - 06:36.

you must truely live in a bubble. Who consideres these people "Experts"? Good practices eh? Why don't you try and call some franchis owers in the US? None of them have anything good to say about Curves and their deceptive ways.

Curves in Aus by Ray Borradale

Submitted by Ray Borradale on Thu, 2009/08/27 - 13:36.

Just for the hell of it and to provide some Aussie Curves feedback I did a quick search.

Gary and Diane Heavin visit Australia

Before purchasing her Curves franchise in Sydney’s inner west

Buying a Curves Franchise

I could not find any Curves franchisee complaints from Australia? I thought they had won a Franchise Council of Australia award but it seems they didn’t and anyone can buy one of those.

Interesting how my search went off on a tangent and ended back in 2002-2004 looking at so much positive media about numerous franchises that today are deemed to be disasters. A few of the journalists who were very positive about those brands and franchising as the route to business success at the time either publish nothing about franchising or are somewhere between reserved to critical today.

From 2000 to 2006 FCA award winners included a ‘who’s’ who’ of today’s accepted Australian scams; Poolwerx, Bakers Delights [COBS], Jumping J-Jays, Lenard’s Chicken etc etc.

Australian Franchise Opportunities, a common sense approach to franchising

Awards by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Fri, 2009/08/21 - 23:26.

Richard writes: " Are you daring to contradict the awards committee of renown experts who decided to recognize Curves as an investment worthy franchise opportunity - chock a block with fairness and jolly feeling toward franchisee associations and all that other crapola that the AAFD takes into account (plus money changing hands) when deciding to bestow its covetous recognition."

Uh, I was one of the renown experts who recommended that Curves be given an award - not because it is currently an investment worthy franchise because it isn't- since Curves has recognized the extreme downturn in their franchisee's resale value and have seriously tried to engage their IndFA to solve this problem.

Will the Curves IndFa working with the franchisor solve their economic problems? Don't know, but we gave the award because the franchisor was constructively working with the Curves IndFA to address their economic woes.

And as Richard knows, his favourite firm, Dady and Garner, agreed with the award.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

Solomon mis-states the facts by Paul Steinberg

Submitted by Paul Steinberg on Fri, 2009/08/21 - 22:10.

I am not a member of AAFD, but my understanding is that the Curves award was based on the franchisor's commitment to Fair Franchising Principles. That has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether the franchise is "an investment worthy franchise opportunity." I understand that Richard has great antipathy toward the AAFD. But let us be accurate.

Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400

Steinberg and Webster are both wrong by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sat, 2009/08/22 - 11:39.

If you go to the Curves web site, you will see that the award is being used to tell franchise investors that the AFFD named Curves the F'or of the year, amongst other endorsements and encomia suggesting in total that this is something you should definitely invest in. The small print is at least two clicks away and no one reads the disclaimers - which are not in this instance actually disclaimers at all. The AAFD bullshit awards - no matter why given - are always used by their scam award recipients to sell franchises. This is just bulshit, and the AAFD has never been anything other than bullshit.

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Think you are wrong, Richard by michael webster

Submitted by michael webster on Sat, 2009/08/22 - 12:55.

The only mention of the AAFD award on the Curves site is their press release which states, in part,

AAFD Chairman Robert Purvin cited Curves’ exemplary franchise culture as the primary focus of the AAFD’s recognition. “Curves management has encouraged and supported the organization of an independent franchisee association, including a willingness to engage the association’s elected leadership.”

In the 15 years that I have been representing franchisee associations, my experience with Curves International has been utterly unique,” said Ron Gardner, the attorney for Circuit Fitness Association (CFA). “The company has supported a completely independent association, both financially, and through open and continuous access to Curves’ senior management and have embraced the CFA as a valuable source of information. That’s contributed to noticeable improvements in the system for both the franchisees and the franchisor—exactly how a healthy franchisor/franchisee srelationship should work.

You might have confused the AARP ad on the front page of the Curves website with the AAFD.

Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"

You can't word game your way around the fact that Curves by RichardSolomon

Submitted by RichardSolomon on Sat, 2009/08/22 - 13:48.

is using the AAFD award to sell franchises - no matter how you may quote sections of this or that....

Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School

Curves Slowing Down?

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