Quiznos: A Tragic Ending to a Franchisee's Plight
The Whittier Daily News in California reported that Bob Baber walked into the restroom of a Quiznos restaurant on November 27, and shot himself three times.
A detective on the scene reported that he had this letter in his possession.
* The letter can be read here (pdf) or in the attachment below
* Read Toasted Subs Franchisee Association's dedicated page to Bob Baber [Editor's note: The dedicated page was pulled off the site.]
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Bob Baber Suicide Note.pdf | 17.78 KB |
(11 votes)
- Franchise topic:
We all know about Bob Baber. Does anyone know?
I own a Quiznos owner. The brand is in ruin across the country. In January of 2009 there were 12 stores in our city. At the end of November 2009 there will be 3. This is common across the country with Quiznos. I recommend strongly that you support the financially ruined owners by purchasing a meal now and then but recommend even more that you tell anyone interested in investing in this brand that they DO NOT DO IT. Add the franchise SMASHBURGER to the avoid at all cost list because it is owned by the same Rick and Dave Shaden that are ruining Quiznos owners. My store closes in November and I cannot wait for that day.
While wholesale prices have stabalized, and in many cases fallen, Q has made an art of lowering quality without lowering prices to franchisees. Now come the price increases - while pushing buy one, get one for a buck. All with the b.s. flowing:
"The following cheese price increase for restaurants is a direct result of the Canadian Dairy Commission (CDC) increase in the support prices for butter and skim milk powder. Support prices are the prices at which the CDC buys and sells butter and skim milk powder to balance seasonal demand changes on the domestic market. Although this CDC price increase came into effect February 1st, the increase has been absorbed by Quiznos for the first 6 months."
For you smart guys buying Smashburger franchises - this is what is in store for you.
I am a current Quiznos Owner in the New York area. I am 26 and got into this business when I was 23. I got out of college at 22 and worked for JP Morgan getting paid very well however, working many hours. I got into Quiznos thinking I would be making the same amount if not more with less time. I was completely WRONG! I work around 80 hours a week without pay and my store doesn't profit more than $500 a month with sales over $8,200 a week. I can't even get married to my girlfriend of six years becasue I have no income or job. It has been the worse three years of my life. Quiznos should lower food cost, and allow owners to get certain cheaper services on there own.
Hey! I need advice!... I'm 24 yrs old, and got bachelors with triple major banking/finance/mgmnt. I live in Florida, and there is currently a quiznos franchise for sale. I do not have the money but been thinking about applying for a loan at the bank. The owner of this established franchise is 75,000 and the owner wants 60,000 down which he claims to be VERY reasonable! He says sales are around 200,000 but Im currently waiting on the actual report. If any, can you give me any advice? Anything would help! Thank you!
answer: google quiznos & lawsuits
$200,000 a year? That's peanuts. You'll find yourself paying everyone but yourself. 11% right off the top for royalties and advertisement money that Q uses to advertise and sell currently closed restaurants. 35% for food and paper, 35% for your employees and a small salary for yourself, rent, electricity at more than a grand a month, taxes, discounts and giveaways designed to make Q money on the extra food sold to you. Quiznos makes its money selling food, paper, and supplies to YOU. Dick Schaden could care less whether you're making a profit or not.
The guy giving you this great "deal" spent $350,000 to buy and build-out his Q. Now he wants to get out with $60,000. Think about why. And don't assume you're that much smarter than the guy who owns it now. Even with great ideas you have very little flexibility when you can only sell what Q authorizes you to sell and can only buy what Quiznos authorizes you to buy, and you're required to staff at the level Q tells you to whether your business justifies it or not.
If you're looking for an opportunity look for a system where franchisees own multiple stores and have their own territory, a system that is expanding. Q has gone from 6,000 restaurants to 3,000 in three years. Try to find a system where franchisees buy the food and advertising through franchisee run co-ops. That's how you minimize costs in a franchisee based system.
Q is a loser run by a flea bitten dog. Don't believe me? Find a good franchisee lawyer and pay the money to talk about Quiznos, franchise agreement, and what you can expect in a long-term relationship with Quiznos. Don't buy yourself a crummy, low paying job.
Have you read all the horror stories about Quizno's? Quizno's horror stories are all over the internet. It has been written here on BMM that Quiznos is cheap when it comes to due diligence.
You need life experience not a crappy Quizno's.
Owning Quizno's with $200K in sales means? You could be an assistant manager at McDonald's and make more money or better yet get in the Chik-fil-a management to ownership program.
I am perplexed that a graduate with a triple major banking/finance/management would posit a question like yours. What do they teach in people these days? Or are they handing out stupid pills to folks?
Guest,
Yours is a very wise and genuine contribution.
Kevin O'Leary, the BSer venture capitalist on ABC's Shark Tank (originally CBC's Dragon's Den) told a VC potential "winner":
True stuff slips out every once in a while.
Les Stewart MBA FranchiseFool :: WikidFranchise
Can you please tell me your expenses for a month
to make only $500 profit
Food 34
Paper 2
Labor 24
Royalties 11
Discounts 15
Lease/Rent 12.......
As we are already at 98% you can see the problem. Food can be cut somewhat....at most 4%. Labor can be reduced if you are willing to live at your location but this makes multi unit operations impossible. The constant discounting keeps most in a choke hold and unprofitable.
Here's my location...gross figures
Food 30
Paper 2
Labor 20 - I nearly live there
Royalties 11
Discounts 11 - My own pricing NOT Quiznos'
Lease/Rent 9.5
Could improve Food & Paper if bought outside of the Quiznos system. Royalities are too high for this Brand's strength (or lack thereof). Quiznos' marketing has pretty much sucked for over 3 years now so discounting is the only way this brand can generate sales. Rent check each month is $3633.
Or at least feel like you are. The only way to break the death grip (p)Rick has on Q franchisees is to unite. "united we stand, divided we're qscrewed".
I am considering buying a Quiznos from an existing owner. The location is great and the price is $35k. The seller is going to pay for the 4k remodel and the transfer fee.
He said he made about $306k in sales last year. The place is employee run because his health and age.
What should I look for and any suggestions is appreciated. After reviewing the message board about the food cost and the lawsuits I am having 2nd thoughts.
I was looking to buy a q too. The broker said it is doing 380k / year and asking 79k in sales which looked good, but when I read all these horrifying stories, I am not going forward with this.\
The co-ops fees are too high.
the existing franchisee. But I doubt you are ready for any business if you have to ask this question. Learn how to read first; this is not the only Q blog. Get someone to show you how to find google and then get them to type in Quiznos. If they can do that then I'm sure they can read the hits for you. Perhaps you could get your wife's opinion once she has a read.
i have worked for quiznos for 4 years now. and I'm tired of hearing my boss how quiznos messed up his whole life. he now has to dig into his own pocket, cause quizno depends on the coupons to bring in there costumers.. I'm mean if you have to pay 1500$ to buy your food and you cant even get it delivered to you without paying an extra 200$ a week to get it..there good subs but if you got to lie to ur franchize owners just to get them to open up new stores.they tell you that you will make all this money but they forget to monition (you got to pay royalties) let say you make 12000$ in amonth they take 11000$ and you get the rest to buy your food, paper, labor... then you will have problems.. like the guy who shot himself...take it from me you DO NOT WANT TO OPEN YOUR OWN STORE unless you would like to pay out of pocket
Although the Baber's family tragedy isn't something we hear about often, the tactics and abuse that were directed at these franchisees are all too common in the industry. When is our federal legislature going to address post sale franchise issues by moving forward with either an expansion of the FTC rules or the passage of the SBFA? What is it going to take for these very important issues to gain momentum?
Lisha
Rhino Super Center
I didn't know Bob well, but I know that he spent a lot of time and effort trying to work WITH quiznos to make things better, but the corporate group sued him for speaking out and tried to shut down his stores.....Hopefully the loss of his life with help Quiznos corporate group realize there actually is a problem!
I've never been an advocate for Quiznos as a franchise opportunity. Over the years I've questioned the business model, real estate acquisition strategy, the practices used to build the brand and the requirement for franchisees to purchase product from Quiznos.
I've worked with existing Quiznos franchisees and have heard many horror stories about their experiences with the franchisor. This is one of the most disturbing personal accounts I've ever read about someone’s life destroyed by franchising. Not just financial ruin but a life taken because the victim saw no other way out.
I didn't personally know Bob, but my thoughts go out to his family and to all those who face or feel a similar plight.Jim Coen, Franchise Perfection, 877-469-3002, jim@franchiseperfection.com, www.franchiseperfetion.com
Visit my blog at Let's Talk Franchising
Jim Coen
877-469-3002
Blog: Lets Talk Franchising
Executive Director of the New England Franchise Association
President, Dunkin Donuts Independent Franchise Owners (DDIFO, Inc.)
It's a blue moon out in Blue MauMau-land tonight. I had to pull a post, something that is almost never done. Here's why.
As a public community, we ask for civility - even when the subject-matter is disturbing, like this story. Postings with spam links, insults, extremely lewd language or threats (even in jest) will be removed. We also dislike wild accusations and prefer facts, or at least weblinks to facts.
Guests are most welcome. All of Blue MauMau's news, info, franchise links and tools are accessible to guests for free. In return, we hope guests will post comments, experiences and stories of buying and owning a franchise - the good and the bad - as you understand it. Guests can post anonymously (we get some of our best tips that way) but please understand that the best reader response and following is when you register on the site - also free. Registered members have their names attached to their articles. Readers better trust articles from those whom they know something about.
Mr. Blue MauMau
Community Umpire
Janet: Thank you for sharing this tragedy with us.
Jeff Johnson, FranSurvey.com
Posting comments about this tragedy is understandable. Posting this man's suicide note on this site (in my opinion) is at least a bad idea and is at most morally reprehensible.
To those responsible for posting this note, if your family member committed suicide, would you want the note posted on cyberspace?
In respect of Bob Baber's family and loved ones, please take this note down.
Joe Mathews
Franchise Performance Group
Co-author Street Smart Franchising
Joe Mathews
Franchise Performance Group
Co-author Street Smart Franchising
First of all, a majority of franchise owners DO NOT GET THEIR FUNDING FROM THE SBA. A lot of us have the funds to invest(?) in this business on our own. As a former Quiznos owner I was privy to weekly reports and by my calculation, the failure rate of Quiznos stores is on the order of magnitude of 25%!
In addition, there are many owners that have spouses with full time jobs to help pay the Quiznos bills. If this wasn't true, then the failure rate of Quiznos stores would be closer to 50%.
I am a current a owner of one of these store. I know Mr. Baber's feeling. I opened a store 2 years ago and talked with Quiznos about my personal situation and if it were okay for me open. I told them I have a handicap father and a mother who is terminally ill, if i open one of these stores will I make enough to help pay for medical bills and their house payments. I wasn't looking to get rich what-so-ever, I had already made enough working in engineering and I have good health and have many years I can continue to work. They told me "You'll make so much money, you won't know what to do with it!" Of course I was skeptical about that but after reviewing so many other franchises and calling the numbers they provided me (which are to stores that make like a million a year and the owners live on a boat, own private jets, etc. They also told me I would hardly have to work and they have a good program in place to help each owner and owners out. I went with building one. They told me initially I only needed 170K to built the store and it was very easy to get an SBA loan. That was false. I had to get a different loadn cause SBA would only approve 10K, and to make matters worse the total bill came out to 250K not 170K. To make matters worse, the prices in Quiznos stores are so high because you must have minimum 2 employees at all times, even when there are only like 10 coustomers in a 5 hour period. They own your hours of operation, they tell you when to open and to close and thats it or a 700 dollar fine. To drive prices even higher food costs are outrageous. There is only about 800 dollar profit I make a month and the rest goes to Quiznos, Quizno's food, Franchise Fee, Muzak, and some to employees (This is the least cost), out of 460K. Yes this is true. i don't pay myself I can't afford to because I need the 800 dollars a month for cleaning windows, floor buffing and misc. expenses like fridge maintance, uniforms, etc. I work in the store well over 60 hours a week. And i watch my parents passing away in front of my eyes. My wife couldn't take it, so she moved out, I told her too. Were still married, but it was hard to watch her see me suffer for so many unpaid hours, with bills pilling up.
Quiznos Franchise is a relationship killer. Don't get in if you have kids or a spouse.
To bob frankman
I feel for Bob Baber I really do…. That’s why im posting this reply. People should know that he's not alone in his feeling and problems with this corporation and why he may have driven himself to death.
In response:
Guest: "There is only about 800 dollar profit I make a month and the rest goes to Quiznos, Quizno's food, Franchise Fee, Muzak, and some to employees (This is the least cost), out of 460K."
Bob, most stores only do 300k to 400k a year. I’m actually even lucky that I do 60k more a year. At the beginning of the year, Quiznos tried getting us owners to work even harder than we already are to push revenues up. They gave us a calendar with 4 spots per day, and REQUIRED us to go door door, yes us owners and push our sales higher. We had to do it, or we didn’t pass our inspection. I barely passed. When your working in the store 7 days a week its hard to find energy to go out door to door and do this. My employees felt so bad, that they actually volunteered (yes without pay) to go and give out coupons every couple days after work. We printed out a map, because Quiznos wanted us to do this in a 2 mile radius of our store, and employees and I would blotch out the business and residents that we visited. You ask me, Quiznos should get some of their marketing people, who sit around all day, down here and have them go door to door and do it themselves. Local business owners, and residents alike couldn’t believe that, here the owner of the quiznos, was going around doing this. Some were appalled that I would come and knock on there door and provide them with coupons. They didn’t even want them regardless of “Free Sandwich”. In todays market of mass stream media advertisement and vast marketing schemes the so called “door to door salesman” approach doesn’t work.
To answer your other questions:
1. Bob I am still an owner and still here at the store, gonna mop and finish the dishes.
2. I had a class of 33 people. I made friends with 4. Here is the breakdown:
a. Owner 1, won a lottery and spend 1/3 on quiznos, 1/3 on a house and saved the rest. He sold his store a month later. He was fuming, when he told me what his profits were like, after all bills were paid. He sold his store for half.
b. Owner 2, spent his life saving of his and his wife. He sold his store for exactly what he paid for it, except now the job he quit of 19 years in hopes of being financially free from quiznos was now gone and he has had to start over.
c. Owner 3, received a fabulous location and is still owner. He paid his store off within 6 months of opening.
d. Owner 4, broke even every month for 1 ½ years, became exhausted and just ended up selling for a loss.
3. bob I just can’t get to 600k, I just can’t. I’m mentally beat, exhausted from working numerous hours, days, and weeks, and I’ve lost a lot of weight. I never see my family, my mother and father. I’m wanting to get out, but I need time to find a buyer.
This is the breakdown of your costs:
1. Food 29%
2. Labour 20%
3. discounts 4%
4. Paper 2%
I have yet to meet an owner currently that can achieve these goals on a daily basis. Especially if your food is high, Quiznos fines you for the year end total, because they think you scammed them, but they don’t think that maybe employees don’t weight the meat and cheeses out time to time when there are a million customers at lunchtime. One owner had to pay 7 thousand dollar fine. They also don’t think that maybe your store gives a free sandwich to your employees and they forget to just ring it up as a employee meals.
Another thing to remember is that at the beginning of the year there was a mandatory meeting that quiznos has that everyone must fly to (depending on there location they are setup regionally) and at that meeting we were told that food costs were going down and our profits would be going up. Instead they gradually rose to what they are right now. Plain and simple outrageous. I would say 20% higher then what they were at the beginning of the year.
Quiznos corporation also think of owners like measly humans. They talk to us like we inherited the money, or found it under a rock and we just woke up today and invested in a Quiznos. Were not that stupid. Were Doctors, Engineers, and many other professions in hopes of financial freedom. Many of us put ourselves through college made some money, wanted to get out of the rat race. One example of this is when your store is inspected. The inspector always says one thing, and then they always seem to understand, but have never ran a store from day one, ever. Then the next time they enter your store, they tell you another thing and why are you doing this that way? Or this way? That’s because the same inspector told you last time to do it that way. Your there everyday you know what he said, but they always insist that they are right and write you up. Still yet they have never ran a store. It’s a mess. You run out for a quick errand, buy paper, go to the bank, it doesn’t matter, if the inspector walks in and your not there, you just received a “red” basically failed. I know, I’ve been doing this for awhile. The inspector always wants to walk in when the owner is there, bottom line.
“Be your own Boss!” Its all false. Steve Shaffer, his cronies in the company, regional directors (which all got bought recently so we now have no local support unless your in Colorado), and the inspectors are your Boss.
Bob, if you feel that this is just one experience, not a nationwide epidemic of unhappy owners. I vow to you to go into your local quiznos and survey them. Be gentle and polite and just ask them if there happy. 8 out of 10 will open up and tell you there horror stories.
This an American Dream turned into a tragedy by the big Corporation headed by a lawer. It shows how this franchise system is so currupt that the only way out for a hardworking family is for one of them to commit suicide with a hope of drawing some attention to their plight and help the rest of the franchisees like them.
God Bless the members of the Baber family.
2. But the current law on disclosure would probably not recognize these as valid claims: it was all in the UFOC.
3. So, what would those franchisees do differently if they were researching Quiznos, now? What do they think the (3) biggest tricks played on them were? How was the UFOC misleading?
My sincere best wishes to the Baber family.
Michael Webster PhD LLB Psychology of Compliance and Due Diligence Law www.bizop.ca
Michael Webster, a franchisee attorney in Toronto, Ontario, publishes a website on business opportunities and franchises called "The BizOp News"
Many Quiznos owners who are themselves honest and moral. These individuals surround themselves with people of the same character. They in turn are not exposed to the corrupt salespeople who prey on their naivety. Many of these individuals were verbally sold a line of B.S. Quiznos hides behind these verbal claims by pointing out the legalease in the UFOC. Bottom line is that many Quiznos owners gained an education out of buying into this system. They now realize the importance of getting it in writing.
We mistakenly assume that Quiznos corporate would do the morally right thing. They seem to be on relatively firm ground legally speaking but this does not make it right. One day, these individuals will answer to a higher power.
I have operated Quiznos franchise in Chicago and I am among the lucky ones who came out of this catch22, financially shaken but not ruined. My comments may help those who do not understand what is actually wrong with Quiznos.
An average Quiznos in Chicago has $7600 fixed monthly expense i.e., $3400 rent, $2000 loan repayment and $2200 for operating expeneses like utilities, insurance equipment rentals Payroll taxes,and accounting etc.
After taking off 33% food and paper cost, 20% labor, 8 % discounts and 11% royalty the owner is left with 28% sales to meet these fixed expenses. He/She needs $6300 sales per week just to breakeven. Unfortunately in Chicago very few Quiznos have such sales volume. If you add a decent salary for owner's time then the desired sales figure becomes even more unattainable.
That is the reason so many owners are really working for nothing. It is no secret that out of the 160 or so Quiznos in Chicago 80% are for sale or want to sell but cannot find buyers.
To make things worse Quiznos corporation forces owners to use only designated providers for even simple things like accounting, payroll processing, insurance, towels and knifes service. If one is lucky to find a buyer it also demands thousands of dollars in transfer fee and updates from the owner.
In conclusion for most people in Chicago the Quiznos model is not working.
What many of you are not understanding is that the UFOC (Franchise Agreement) is not givin to you until after you have paid your 25k. Also many new people eager to become owners try to view a UFOC before they sign their life over, but it says in that book strictly that it is confidential, making owners of that book afraid of lending it out.
So what happens until you receive that book? Your told about great times in Vegas (Quiznos meeting were thrown there before, but at your blood sweat and tears), The new types of cigars you'll be smoking with your new income, the new lexus you'll be driving, how easily you can upgrade to a 4000sq foot home, and among other things.
Once you pay the 25k and then finally receive that UFOC, Quiznos then shuts its heavy Steel door in your face, assigns you a cell number and a cell block. And your area regional director walks away with his fur coat while smoking a cuban cigar gets into his porsche and is never heard from again................ Welcome to Quiznos........
I too am a victim and this happened to me. I was unfortunate I folded with a huge loss. Never made a dime since day one.
A couple of quick points from a former Quiznos corporate employee...
1. Have you noticed that they always post as guests..it is because Quiznos Corp will send out a default notice/Termination letter if they are found to have "created ill will" by the sole judgement of Quiznos Corporate. They have no voice! If they speak out, they are threatened, berated, and sued. This is not an overstatement. They are then forced to sign an additional agreement promising not to speak out again in any format (this includes meetings or even with other local owners).
2. Paul and Fransynergy, you both seem to spend quite a bit of time defending Quiznos Corporate, but seem to be basing you responses on limited information at best. For example, Quiznos has each store base their food cost on top line sales (before discounts), not bottom line cash in. As far as I know, they are the only major chain that takes that approach, and this leads to reporting the typical stores food costs 4-8 points below what it actually is!
3. Q knows there is are major issues with their FO's, and they need to take steps to address these issues or JP Morgan will not be purchasing the remaiming 51% of the business...by the way, the other posting was correct...2.4 billion for 100% of the company was the initial asking price as stated in the WSJ, and JP Morgan purchased half of the company for 25% of the asking price. As a side note, 8 venture capital firms expressed interest and all 8 backed away from the table within 30 days after a short review of the organization. That is how JP Morgan got such a great deal.
4. As a former Quiznos Corporate employee I saw a lot of awful things. For 4 years I was proud of our growth, product, and brand. The past 2 years I had a hard time living with myself because of the corporate executive team, the level of pure greed, and the direction the company was going in. They repeatedly sold territories to more than one FO, they collected millions in rebates and never shared those rebates with the FO's (until recently), they lied in the sales process, inflated food and paper costs, and overall behaved in a frighteningly one-sided manner.
I am happy to be out of the organization, I can even sleep at night & look myself in the mirror once again! All of us former Quiznos Corporate employees were repeatedly told of the evils of the TSFA, but looking at it these days, they might be just the kick in the ass that Quiznos needs! (and secretly we are all watching closely as this house of cards tumbles)
I heard today about Bob Baber and I feel deeply moved by his plight. I can personally understand the painful truth of running a Quiznos sub. My husband and I are former Quiznos owners from NW New Jersey. Frequently we cried, yelled and despaired after we put in our 13 hour days, 7 days a week with no time off. We were losing $2-3k a month to this business and often spoke about just walking away from everything and taking revenge against our foes (the bank, Quiznos, the less than understanding landlord, etc. I guess we had nothing better to do than dwell on our misfortunes (after the dishes were done and the floor was mopped, of course). Fortunately we were able to sell the business and (at a huge loss) some time ago. Our lives will never be the same. I am still amazed that my husband and I stuck together through the crisis.
It's so unfortunate that Bob felt compelled to take his own life because of Quiznos. Our deepest sympathy goes out to his family.
Dear Guest:
Welcome: You must be new to BlueMaumau, although it's hard to tell, the Sir Name of Guest is quite common here in the land of the bluemaumau.
Please allow me to point out that if you'll dig deeper into the Quiznos discussion you'll learn that YES Quiznos is not in the Top 500 but that is only because the person at Quiznos or at the marketing/PR agency associated with Quiznos Failed to return their paperwork to Entrepreneur in the appropriate time frame. Had they done so, they would have most likely remained in the top 5.
Believe & Succeed,
FranSynergy
Synergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!
wwww.fransynergy.com
Believe & Succeed,
Dale
FranSynergy, Inc.
Synergizing Franchising!
www.fransynergy.com
Dear Guest,
You must be new so I'll give you a fast recap of the Baber suicide as covered here. Blue MauMau is the site that cared enough to carry this story when no other journal would. We were the spark that started the flame.
There were other previous franchisee suicides at Quiznos. Unfortunately, Blue MauMau did not exist at the time. NO TRADE JOURNAL COVERED THEM. As for Mr. Baber, Janet Sparks broke the news of his suicide on Blue MauMau on December 7 from a small paragraph on a suicide at a local Quiznos in the Whittier Times.
The franchise angle of this was originally covered by two sources. The Toasted Subs Franchisee Association was the only other site that had the chutzpah to post the suicide note. And what did they get for their efforts? Unfortunately, since they are associated with Quiznos and not a third-party media like Blue MauMau, Quiznos corporation sent a notice of franchise termination to TSFA's board of directors - all franchisees - instructing them to take off the suicide note. The note is no longer there. You can still read Baber's suicide note (pdf) here.
Quiznos' corporate heavy-handedness caused an uproar in this community with posts denouncing such corporate action coming fast and furious.
Shortly after, Rick Schaden stepped down from his position as CEO and a new turnaround king was appointed.
After it was covered here, other industry journals decided that they would cover it. And it seems to me that journalists of the mainstream media interested in franchising began watching our site and its input from the street. I was pleased to see that our efforts here caught the attention of mainstream media when BusinessWeek wrote an article that mentioned Bob Baber.
This is how I see it. If you want the real news scoop by your fellow franchisees, this is the place. We have franchise consultants and franchiser executives who argue the other side. Yet others argue for regulation. Such a wide array of views may be messy. For me, it ensures from time to time that I read something that is opposite to my point of view. But many of us like such an approach to franchise news and issues. Getting to the kernel of truth takes effort.
Quiznos is failing. Not only in Chicago, but all across the nation from CA to NJ to FL to AL.
Ken
FuwaFuwaUsagi
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."
You realize, I know, that government regulation of franchises is stacked in favor of the franchisors because government considers "franchising" as good for business and want to encourage this "trickle down" business concept (that resembles indenture) to maintain a viable economy.
The consumer protection laws do not apply to franchisees. Some members of The Congress of the US have tried to get a Bill passed to strengthen protections for franchisees but the franchisors, who have all of the money and the clout, always prevent any effective legislation. The franchisees have a "small voice" when addressing their complaints to the legislatures and the regulators, and the courts protect "public policy" because they tend to interpret franchise agreements strictly under contract law and contract case law.
Some of the states have statutes and laws that give some help to the franchisees but most of the failed franchisees are not in the financial condition to support any kind of arbitration or litigation in the courts.
A Franchisee, like Baber, who is brought to despair and depression and who becomes sick and commits suicide gets very little coverasge in the news and the media -------and no sympathy from his franchisor who will personally attack him in defense of their own ugly practices if the matter ever gets to a court.
The government of the people, for the people, and by the people is infected with the virus of "corporatism" and the worm of "privatization" and our elected officials and government regulators permit the redistribution of wealth at the expense of the "bottom feeder" --the franchisee - who can be sacrificed to the concept of the "public good" - and the "public good" is defined by the large corporations of our nation.
If our elected officials do not care and will not regulate franchisors to protect the franchisees from the greed of the corporations who gain, even while the franchisee is dying and failing, and in the failure itself (because of "fire sales" and "acquisition of the tangible assets", franchisees will continue to be sacrificed for the "public good"!
Stay away from this franchise. It will tear your life and family apart.
What kind of a freak are you.
World needs to see what Quizno did to this man, Baber, how he felt and what drove him to take his life.
Do you have any idea what went through his mind before he pulled the trigger, how beautiful life could have been for him, but society and a bad business choice pushed him to do that.
You are a very small person.
This certainly is a tragedy. It's not an easy thing for some of us men when our business goes south. So much of our hunter/gatherer identity is bundled with our work, so when a business doesn't succeed, we feel like such a personal failure - wasted our lives away. But that just ain't so. One of the great things about America is the ability to dust ourselves off from failure to start again. New business, new marriage, new city, new religion, new dog... well, you get the idea.
In regards to owning a Quiznos, I'd just like to point out that according to the SBA failure rate tool posted on this site, the chances for business success are as good as they come. I know that's a different message than the loud noises we hear on the street. According to the SBA, only 0.13% of 1400 SBA loans disbursed (quite a large sample size) between 2000 - 2005 to Quiznos franchise owners failed.
Frankman
I am going through a mix of emotions. Came across this:
Even in death, Mr. Baber published his anguish about his franchise experiences and what he felt were inadequate protections of franchisee's rights in the hope of helping others, although he felt it was too late for himself. He wanted others to benefit from his suffering. Is that not an offering, even in suffering?
My sincere condolences to his family and friends.
Frankman
For $175k, there are certainly a plethora of choices in the world of franchising today, even some that don't have several pages of litigation.
In my experience, I have never heard a positive thing about Quiznos.
Now, I am not a huge fan of restaurant franchising, having been in the restaurant business for years and years.
If someone gifted me a restaurant, I would be the landlord, collect my rent, and distance myself from the operation. Issues like 400% employee turnover, fickle customers, high cost, among others...{Did I mention the work is 7 days a week, and about 12-15 hours a day} restaurants are not for everyone.
But, lots of folks have done quite well as owners, so some of my opinions have to do with
my own head, and my personal experience. For the right person, with the right skill sets, a restaurant franchise may be perfect.
I have had clients mention Quiznos in passing, and they just kept on passing.
When it comes to franchise investing, when one does the proper research, leaving the emotion out of course, and concentrating on fact gathering, a wise decision can be made.
My prayers are with this gentleman's family.
Franpro
Franpro is:
Joel Libava, President
Franchise Selection Specialists Inc.
Cleveland, Ohio
For days I’ve been torn on whether or not to chime in on this issue. I now only chime in to support the comments made by Greg Nathan and Joe Mathews. When someone takes their life it is a tragedy, for the person whose life has been lost, for their families and for many others who were involved with the person or became involved as a result of the act itself.
Now is not the time to point fingers and lay blame. Now is not the time to use this terribly sad and unfortunate event to promote an agenda. In my opinion now is the time for Quiznos, Toasted Subs Franchise Association, and the entire franchising community to come together in offering support to those who were impacted by this tragic event.
Now is the time for Franchise Leadership to stand up and show their support to the family and extinguish this fire before it grows any further. It is not time to continue to pour fuel on the fire. I applaud both Greg & Joe for standing up and demonstrating the type of leadership which will allow franchising to grow, and not adding fuel to the fire which only hurts us all! I call on other franchise leaders to do the same!
On behalf of myself and my company, I offer our sincerest condolences to the family of Mr. Baber for the loss of a loved one, as well as to the Quiznos family of franchisees!
Believe & Succeed,
FranSynergy
Synergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!
www.fransynergy.com
Believe & Succeed,
Dale
FranSynergy, Inc.
Synergizing Franchising!
www.fransynergy.com
Ms. Janet Sparks is sharing Bob Baber's note and story with the community at the widow's behest. Blue MauMau has honored that wish, as have other websites. In an email to the editor, Ms. Sparks wrote:
Mr. Greg Nathan, a psychologist and the Managing Director of Franchise Relationships Institute, was asked if he might write about what franchisees can do when all seems to be spiraling down out of control. His article can be found here.
This tragedy highlights issues that a few of our franchisee readers may be experiencing or are interested in. Readers can expect more reporting from Ms. Sparks on this story here in the next few days.
Mr. Blue MauMau
Editor
Thank you for commenting on our Blog.
Getting real world comments from franchisees that are in the trenches every day is a critical component of this type of blog.
To future franchisees of any franchise:
Do not invest in a franchise just because it is "branded".
I always ask my clients why they want to join ABC Franchise Co.
If it mostly because of great name recognition, most are doomed to fail.
If it part of the reason, and their reasons go deeper than name recognition...i.e. matches their personal and professional strengths, investment capability etc. ...only then is the possibility for success reasonably high.
There are great franchise companies out there with average marketing and branding, and there are lousy franchises to choose from that have great sales staffs, and superb marketing etc.
Choose wisely!
Franpro
Franpro is:
Joel Libava, President
Franchise Selection Specialists Inc.
Cleveland, Ohio
I've been trying to keep quiet. I'd like to hear more about Bob Barber, his background and his fight here, under the news of his passing.
And I'd be a little more comfortable understanding, discussing, and debating elsewhere what the beef is with some Quizno's owners. So, if Mr. Blue MauMau doesn't mind, I've started a thread in our forum section, away from this news story. It is:
Expect some push back if you are arguing how terrible the concept is, because up to now it is difficult to understand what the beef is.
Frankman
Dear ‘Guest’
I knew I did not want to or need to get involved in this overly emotional dialogue, I gave in to the temptation and now I’m being called “Arrogant” and accused of delivering “Franchisor Rhetoric”. With continued reluctance I’ll respond to your comments and add to my own thoughts.
As for being “Arrogant”, at a very early age I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance, and have found no reason to change.
As for “Franchisor Rhetoric”, I’m committed to the advancement of franchising, and work with both franchisee and franchisor. Successful franchisors must be committed to the success of a system as a whole, and must make decisions which are good for the majority even if unpopular with the minority. Therefore if in an effort to voice what I believe to be in the best interest of franchising it sounds like what you call “Franchisor Rhetoric”, so be it.
As for “My Listening” ability, I listen quite well, and what I hear is a few people with personal agendas exploiting a tragic and unfortunate event! It has been less than 2 weeks since Mr. Baber took his own life. I believe now is the time to provide sympathy and support for the loss of a good man. I do not believe that it is time to sling mud. ANGER is a natural part of the grieving process, especially in the event of a suicide. Those who are less emotionally involved must try to help calm those who are hurt and angered. Quiznos is in a damned if they do and damned if they don’t position. Personally, I’d have preferred to have seen Toasted Subs put up the tribute page to a deceased franchisee without ‘the letter’ which has been portrayed as a suicide letter when actually it was a letter in his possession at the time of his death.
Many people believe that Quiznos offers a superior consumer product. Unfortunately having a superior product does not automatically translate into a great franchise system. Quiznos has worked and worked well for thousands of franchisees. There have also been many who have been unable to make the Quiznos system work for themselves. With the entire Quiznos franchise system being up for sale, it is probably fair to assume that it is not meeting the expectations of ownership either.
There are very few businesses, franchise or otherwise, that move from start-up to American success story without experiencing a lot of challenge and stress along the way. Divorce, loss of savings, and downturns in life style, are not unique to franchising nor is franchising immune to these ill-effects of pursuing the entrepreneurial dream. An investment in a franchise is like any other investment; one should not invest more than they are prepared to lose. This advice is not limited to money, it applies to emotion, time, family, etc….
Quiznos is not the perfect franchise system, but Quiznos did not follow Mr. Baber into the restroom and fire three shots into his chest. People do not take their on life because of a single event but because they have lost hope for the future as the result of a culmination of events. The annual suicide rate in the U.S. is approximately 12 per 100,000 in population. It is not statistically out of line for a franchisor the size of Quiznos to have experienced such a tragedy.
There are two (2) points I’d like to make:
FIRST: Only Mr. Baber and his maker know why he took his own life. It appears as though Mr. Baber had a desire to contribute to making Quiznos a better franchise system. It appears as though Mr. Baber was sincere and passionate in his efforts to do so. Blaming Quiznos for an unfortunate event will not make for a better system. If anything it only harms the system, and the franchisees who are trying to work within the system.
SECOND: Suicide is never the ONLY answer, it is never the BEST answer, and should never even be considered as a POSSIBLE answer, to anything at anytime!
At FranSynergy we want every day to be a great day, however we know life doesn’t always go as planned. Therefore as part of our Franchise Service Package we provide our clients with the ‘Resources for Living’ EAP, with special features designed for the issues faced by today’s franchisee. Franchisees have immediate access to confidential support via a secure website and/or access to trained counselors via a toll free number, for a variety of concerns from coping with grief and stress to information and support on financial issues, childcare, relationships and other life challenges. This program is valued at more than $600; however we would like to make it available FREE of CHARGE to any franchisee who may be feeling suicidal. If you feel as though you could benefit from this free confidential assistance email freeeap@fransynergy.com include Free EAP in the subject line and a brief description of your current situation. We will then respond by sending you the information you’ll need to access the program by internet and/or by phone. You may also find the information below to be helpful.
Again, my condolences go out to Quiznos Corporate, Quiznos’ Franchisees, and most importantly to the Baber Family. This will be the last public comment I make on this matter.
Believe & Succeed,
FranSynergy
Synergizing Franchising 1 Franchise at a Time!
www.fransynergy.com
HELPFUL RESOURCES
Web Links
The American Association of Suicidology website: http://www.suicidology.org/index.html
Books
The following books are available through the American Association of Suicidology website:
(http://www.suicidology.org/index.html). You can either select “Resources” or do a search using the book’s title in the search window.
Organizations
Believe & Succeed,
Dale
FranSynergy, Inc.
Synergizing Franchising!
www.fransynergy.com
As a practice Quiznos is compliant with the FTC 5 & 10 Day rules. That doesn't mean that in some isolated case someone did not slip up and mess up. If you feel as though Quiznos' failed to comply with either the 5 or 10 day rules, and if the audit trail validates that, you certainly would have grounds for a suit, and would most likely prevail. Below you'll find a brief description of the rule, and keep in mind that these are business days.
10-day and 5-day Rules: A FTC requirement that the franchisor give potential franchisees a complete copy of their UFOC at least 10 business days before any contract is signed or any money changes hands (the 10-day Rule). Also, potential franchisees must be given a separate contract, with all blanks or negotiated parts completed (except signatures) at least five business days before any contract is signed or any money changes hands (the 5-day Rule).
Believe & Succeed,
FranSynergy
Synergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!
www.fransynergy.com
Believe & Succeed,
Dale
FranSynergy, Inc.
Synergizing Franchising!
www.fransynergy.com
These horror stories have a sickenly familiar refrain.
Since beginning work at this new location I have heard nothing but grumbling from
my boss on how Quizno's treats him and his impossible overhead costs.
He is, I suppose, a typical Quiznos owner....his background was in high tech (engineer)
and although he pulled down a 6 figure salary, wanted to get into business for himself.
What better way than a fast food franchise, right?
Wrong, owning a fast food franchise..especially one run like Quiznos runs it....
is a good way to piss away your life savings, apparently.
After only one year in business, the for sale sign is up.
Problem is.....and doesn't this sound familiar....there are two other Quiznos nearby and
so far no serious offer.
Moral of the story...if someone asks for advice on how to get a Quiznos franchise,
JUST SAY NO!
And BTW, we have come up with our own little explanation of what the acronym Quiznos means....have a chuckle on me:
Q QUIT KIDDING YOURSELF
U U GOTTA BE KIDDING ME
I INVESTIGATE THESE CROOKS
Z ZERO RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT
N NOT A CHANCE IN HELL OF EVER TURNING A PROFIT
O ONLY A DAMN FOOL WOULD BUY THIS FRANCHISE
S SUCKERS....THERE'S ONE BORN EVERY MINUTE
It takes months to understand the FDD. I believe a person needs to study and look for things that are ify. You will see that anything ify will pretain to the zee. Anything concrete will relate to the zor. I laugh at 10 days because it is a joke. Go to Caleasi before you talk to the franchise of your choice. Pay a franchise lawyer to go over it. It takes the average layman a long time to understand the implications of the FDD. Many people don't even know what an addendum is. Unfortunately many people do not know there are franchise lawyers. If you don't understand the FDD than take as long as it takes until you understand what it implies. If they rush you drop the zor. That is a red flag. If you do not understand it do not sign. The consequences is bankruptcy, divorce, living in poverty, begging for money from relatives, depression and possible suicide. Is the consequences enough reason to take the time to understand a Franchise Disclosure Document?
Bob Baber will always be remembered.
To those who need his services, my friend and colleague Geoff Wilkinson is a business resale consultant who has run point on many difficult Quizno's resales. His phone number is (502) 639-7153.
He is a high integrity, stand up guy. He will give franchisees a very clear understanding as to the resale value of their business, timing, as well as expert consulting in how to maximize their resale value.
Joe Mathews
Franchise Performance Group
Co-author Street Smart Franchising
Joe Mathews
Franchise Performance Group
Co-author Street Smart Franchising
Paul Steinberg, Franchisee Attorney, New York City, Ph: 212-529-5400
Did you know that Quiznos and Quiznos Subs are one of the same. Did you not see the 4.93 % failure rate of Quiznos?? Go to BizBuy and look and the volume of pages of Quiznos for sale. Then do a search for Subways. Every Quiznos is for sale out there.
That's a pretty tough living -- working for free like that. It sounds like $500k is pretty close to your break-even point, giving yourself a small salary. Do you think that is close to what revenues are for most Quizno's restaurants?
Frankman
This Bob is not trying to be a smart @$$. Really. I'm one of those guys that lost his shirt in the 2001 stock market slide. Didn't know when to get out. And I'm no stranger to tough breaks. I relate very deeply to this story.
And to prove my first point that this Bob is not so smart, I mixed up the 0.13% charge-off numbers - those numbers of loans that the SBA has to charge-off because they cannot collect the remainder of the loan, with the failure rate percentage.
The failure rate should be 4.93% failures on 1400 loans to Quizno's. And Quiznos Subs has 0% failure rate for 41 loans. No matter how you slice it, to this dim guy those are pretty low failure rates.
In regards to the BizBuy site, I see that 1 of the 8 sponsored ads displayed are for a Quizno's franchise opportunity seminar. What am I missing?
Frankman