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Ranter's Soapbox, Way Off Topic Posts
Editor's comment: Posts that are way off topic from the subject of the blog or news article are put in this forum. Forums are general discussions and debates with the community. What happens is someone posts an article on point-of-sales software systems and often someone will post a general observation about their hobby horse topic, such as franchisors only want to make money and franchisees are easily duped.
In contrast to this forum area, blog comments are on narrow topics. They are posted under news articles and blogs to ask a question of the author about their article or to make a comment about the narrow topic of the article.
This forum was created by Truth In Franchising to help keep news article and blog comments on topic.
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All together now
Most people that visit BMM never had a good experience with franchising and to them franchising is simply a scam. When the relationship is fair the franchising business model can something to behold. There are great franchise models out there. The problem is that the majority are downright dangerous and the ride on the reputation of the few decent brands. Prospective franchisees and lawmakers are suckered while the media lumps all brands together with the message that 'you can't go wrong'.
Be careful of overly broad brush strokes
That is not so. I speak with Blue MauMau readers all the time. For the most part, they seem generally satisfied. Even when franchise owners are unhappy, if asked, the overwhelming majority would say that they can at least think of a good experience in the franchise. And then there are a few franchisees who are in major litigation against their franchisors. They understandably tend to be the unhappiest of all.
Surprisingly, only a very, very few of our passionate commenters, who post their thoughts under news articles, actually claim that they consider the whole franchise industry a scam. Of the 25,000 registered members and tens of thousands of guests who post, I can count them on one hand.
The complexity of a franchise system and the difficulty in persuading a network of individual business owners can bring out the very best in leadership. These players are awe inspiring to me. There are some marvelous players in this industry. But it also brings out the really bad players who clumsily or maliciously use heavy-handed and abusive tools to get what they want.
Blue MauMau will shine a light on both groups and the tools that they use. Investors want to know.
Discovering the good and the bad
Blue MauMau has a responsibility to our readers to bring together franchisee insiders, lawyers, consultants, analysts, court documents, investigative reporters, public comments, social media, technology, government entities, regulators, bankers and franchisor executives to discover the great franchise systems and to uncover the horrific ones to avoid. Blue MauMau will call it as we see it, with a lot of help.
Good franchisors will love the openness of this site while bad ones will say it is "anti-franchising" in an attempt to take pressure off of their bad franchising practices. Smart investors won't be fooled.
You are assumimg
that people will cluelessly enter an industry where they have no experience and use government subsidized loans with inflated revenue numbers and outsource your due diligence. OS, you made some ebismal mistakes in a number of areas. The key thing is to stick with what you know or work in a location as a part of your due diligence.
Guest Attacks, Yet Again
Guest boldly states: "He ripped off in his scam of a litigation that he ran to fleece Curves owners. "
This is just inappropriate. Nobody will take this seriously, except to point out that you are an idiot for posting this.
It was taken seriously enough to get moved here.
It is interesting how this site wants to protect franchisees, but it would be complicit in sweeping the truth about franchisee driven litigation under the rug of the Ranter's Soapbox.
The Curves owners in that lawsuit take it very seriously
I assure you of that. Who the hell are you to decide what is appropriate anyway? Don't you have some franchise award to give to drum up more members to the IAFD or help some PT Barnum sell more franchisees? You're the"Mr. Cuppy;s Coffee" and "Curves Franchise of the Year" man, How's that for being a dunderhead?
Trolls
The Curves comment was off the topic of the magazine Franchise Lawyer or even the events of Cold Stone Creamery so I placed it here. Later in the evening, I began to notice the posts of a particular guest, who is one among many guests here. The public forum doesn't mind a differing viewpoint. But in this case, there was a similar inflammatory style by the guest that was posted under other unrelated articles.
I'm very reluctant to step in folks because I cannot read minds or know for certain that the motives of an individual are maliciously designed to stop conversations. In their defense, this person seems to know people in the industry. He knows the stories of those who post comments here. And although one may not agree, one can see why someone might feel his particular way. And let's face it, Michael, Old Sword, Zarco, Richard, Darnelle, Sean, Paul, Bob, Don and others are more than capable of defending themselves. Nonetheless, the style of derailing conversations by putting a person's name in the title and then attacking the individual with inflammatory words over and over again feels like the methodology of a trained troll. There are other indications that this person has special software. A professional troll means that the guest's postings may not be genuine at all.
Trolls are not allowed into our patch of reef.
For real Curves franchisees, please go to this Curves Public Forum to talk about your issues, or create a new forum.
Moderator
Zarco outfoxes Steinberg
where is steinberg's article? Don, what say you? Doesn't this type of edit hurt your free speech defense. I don't get it.
"For real Curves franchisees,
"For real Curves franchisees, please go to this Curves Public Forum to talk about your issues, or create a new forum.
Moderator"
I read this not so much being about Curves Owners as it is about post franchise litigation and attorney tactics, past, and current behavior. These opinions are just as valid to franchising as disgruntled franchisees (or competitors) who voice their harsh opinions. And as you have stated in the past when posting letters from franchiser lawyers, they are free to respond to the comments.
Interesting
Don, this is interesting. Defamation and slander are allowed, while trolling isn't. I think that this is probably right, and will immediately find some litigation benefit to this insight!
Re: Interesting and deletion of comments
It looks like Don is now taking off most comments left by the guest, which in some cases may be warranted, but I do have a problem with the deletion of the comment that Sean Kelly helped facilitate additional plaintiffs in the Curves case.
First, I have no problem with what Sean does on his website. I've communicated with him via e-mail and I think he is wants people to get there stories out. Do I think some of it may be forced or making something out of nothing, sometimes.
Second, he did steer people that were interested in getting attorney help to a former franchisee who was determined to bring down Curves (this is a fact). I posted on that website many of times trying to tell people that they needed to be careful and that if you looked at the case filings that countersuits were being brought against some of the franchisees.
In the end, did people send money to Zarco that probably shouldn't have been part of the lawsuit (considering they settle for no money, and the countersuit being dropped). How many of those people were steered to Zarco by Sean's efforts, I don't know (could be none).
The fact of the matter is, these lawsuits are popping up all over the place. People are jumping at getting on the list, yet they need to see the bad side too (isn't that what the majority of this website is about, the pitfalls of owning a franchise).
I'm not sure of the reasoning for the censoring on this issue, but when people are putting up stuff that is could effect someone's decision, I don't believe that it should be deleted. Let that person make up their mind. The comment was made in the forum section, which you had previosly labeled as a 'free for all'.
Trolling
This is a big, wide web site in which all sorts of opinions and comments are welcome. Readers consider both sides of an argument very valuable.
However, as Blue MauMau's software gets better we will better be able to identify and weed out spam and malicious trolling activity in which anonymous posters try to shut down discussion. Having a policy of no trolling is necessary to stimiluate a real conversation about issues - often a very passionate discussion..Blue MauMau's platform can be programmed to discover posting patterns that are simply trying to bring down conversations.
None of us want to waste our time debating an anonymous thirteen year old teenager who blasts out inflammatory comments just to get a rise out of the adults. We don't want to waste energy writing our insights where a company has employed someone to post unrelated spam in a thread because they think doing so will stop the thread from appearing so high on the Google rankings. Identifying trolls ain't perfect. For the time being it is clumsy business. But malicious patterns can be spotted.
Anonymous posters should be civil if they do not want to be mistaken for inflaming conversations just for the fun of side-tracking and shutting it down. Make your point but avoid personal attacks. Incivility isn't enough to make a poster be identified as a troll. With its recent upgrade, the software, with my guidance, will look for troll-like patterns.
Re: Trolling
Posters and civility, I think there have been plenty of comments made that aren't civil on this website (look at your Snap/Anytime discussion, many by guests).
It appears that you are singling out one 'guest'. You have Barbara and Ray using an * so that they can hide curse words (I guess that's civil on this website).
Re: Trolling
JD: Barbara Jorgenson and Ray Borradale are real people with real names. I have spoken with these two registered members. They post what they are passionate about and identify themselves for the world to see that they stand by what they post. In contrast, trolls are anonymous.
Ray and Barbara, I think JD has a point about language though.
Re: Trolling
You taunt me, troll. Out, out you go.
Re: Trolling
Troll, again you taunt me. You have sophisticated tools. I'll give you that. But do you see how it is getting more and more difficult to be here? Good bye.
Articles show access denied
Mr. Steinberg,
Why is it that your article about CS outfoxing Zarco keeps being blocked? When you attempt to read the article it shows "Access Denied". Is this a form of BMM selective editing?
Snell & Wilmer article
Yes. At first I thought the comments from a guest that he couldn't see the article was nonsensical. I now realize that I could see the article because I'm a registered member. However, once I log out, the article disappears.This particular type of Op-Ed article has been very temperamental since the tech team made recent performance tweaks to the site. They will need a few days to figure out the bug. In the meantime, guests need to register as members (free) if they want to see the article. I've tried to get the article on the site for guests to see, recently got it up, but now it is gone again for non-registered guests.
Hmm, if the team can figure this glitch out, it might be an opportunity to have premier content.
Anyhow, there's no conspiracy here, just some sort of software glitch. The article has been up for guests to see for a month. It recently has been going off and on. Working on it...
still can't view the article
. . . even after registering as a member.
Thanks for the heads up
Thanks for the heads up. I saw that it wasn't working again after your post. I'm not sure what I did but it's working for right now. It's going to take a few days to figure out the bug. For the moment, it's working again.
Defamation definition
Here we have a very liberal attitude about free speech, and what is considered to be "defamation" at law is accordingly much narrower than Canada. Also you have to look at the context of the whole statement and it is not sufficient to say that "scam" or "fleeced" is per se defamatory.
Curves owners may take the
Curves owners may take the litigation seriously, and they may be dissatisfied with Zarco.
But simply declaring that Zarco "ripped off" as part of a "scam" and the Zarco clients got "fleeced" does nothing to move the discussion forward when you provide no support, or even tell us why you see his actions as a "scam."
And Webster actually opposed the Cuppy's action taken by the AAFD (not the IAFD) and anyone who was in attendance at the AAFD meeting can tell you that. Webster also did the report on that franchisor, and was the one who uncovered the Funding Solutions connection, among other things.
The reason that using words like "scam" and "fleeced" and "ripped off" is not appropriate is because such statements are meaningless ranting without some backup. It is also counterproductive since readers tend to not take such postings seriously.
Idiot Guests, Yet Again
Idiot Guest writes: "The Curves owners in that lawsuit take it very seriouslyI assure you of that"
If you have a serious complaint, and not a whine, then take it to the appropriate forum. Here that complaint reveals you to be an idiot.
Michael, Doesn't that make you an idiot?
I think so.
The Curves owners in that lawsuit take it very seriously
I assure you of that. Who the hell are you to decide what is appropriate anyway? Don't you have some franchise award to give to drum up more members to the IAFD or help some con artist sell more franchisees? You're the idiot "Mr. Cuppy;s Coffee" and "Curves Franchise of the Year".
This could be a job for FEMA. A national emergency!?!
Tomorrow FEMA will broadcast a national alert test on TV. This is to tell you if we are being screwed by some calamity or other. Some government jerkwad will come on to officially tell you "YOU'RE SCREWED!"
If we just had national television coverage by networks or cable, we would get these emergency alert statements on our regular programming via program interruption to deliver the national emergency message. Oh, wait! We do have this coverage already. So why do we need FEMA to do this at some ungodly expense? Do we even have a reasoanble idea what FEMA costs us to perform these ridiculous, useless and redundant exercises?
Sunce FEMA isn't worth a kim chee fart when the chips really are down, why is it still there? Oh yes. Now I remember,
When there is some calamity, FEMA prepositions claims forms and instruction booklets on how to fill out the claims forms and where to mail them.
And I thought FEMA was useless. Shame on me!
Just announced - The FEMA national emergency test just failed!
Ron Paul is right. We don't need FEMA! FEMA attempted to send out a national alert that Quiznos might have to declare bankruptcy. The message never got out.
Paul Steinberg
Is this the same Paul W. Steinberg, a franchise attorney, who failed to pay nearly $33,000 in taxes on his franchise business, which required NY State to go through the expense of issuing a series of tax warrants against him?
Go to Pacer.com—Court Links—New York Eastern ECF—log into Pacer (register for an account and free to view any case’s documents)—click CM/ECF—click Query top left—enter case number 08-4045—Run Query—Docket Report—Run Report—click Number 21—click 2 for Exhibits A-F—View Document—scroll down to Exhibit B.
Wrong guy
Nope. Old argument that was discussed here long ago. That's another Paul S.
Our local turkey is named David Wilson and is running for mayor
to "Stop the gay agenda" of the current very excellent mayor (who will certainly be re elected) who happens to be a Lesbian. I don't think there is a picture of Wilson anywhere. See:
http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/11/houston-homobigot-dave-wilson-and-his-hateful-postcards.html
Make Franchisors Accountable for Their Numbers
Call, write, and email your congressman. I already have and received a response. But more calls and emails are needed.
People do not listen to this Turkey!!
He does not care about you. He only cares about himself. Wish I never called him. I only disclosed a couple things he said. Keep it Tom and I will disclose more comments you said.
you still don't get it
"He does not care about you. He only cares about himself."
You still don't get it.
She is Clueless
She will never get it, GB.
Put on those Rose Colored Glasses and everything will be just
Dandy!
When I discovered BMM
Our area rep saw me reading BMM in front of him. He said, "BMM was for lawyers trying to drum up business." There is a similarity between Tom's comments and our area rep. What does that tell you? I believe that most zors are into selling franchises than seeing zees succeed.
Good work Barbara
You must have cost Tom Garman more than one commission where a prospective franchisee took note and walked away from his line. This is $$$s talking. Is anyone else wondering if Tom had a hard night?
Time to settle down Tom
I don’t really have a lot of time for this at the moment but there are a couple of points needing to be made. Firstly in the commentary with Tom I made a mistake and regret it.
Secondly; this came about because of a repeated comment from Tom where he attacked Barbara unmercifully. The same comment repeated over and over again and I missed that there was more than a jerk exposing himself.
Thirdly Tom has a strange way of drumming up business and he is obviously very upset with Barbara who must have cost him a sale or two or.
Lastly; yes Barbara does make it personal. For those who weren’t lucky or smarter than the average bear when it came to franchising and the existence of franchisor muggers it does get a bit personal when it takes so much. Mostly contributors and guests here are firing off the same message to prospective investors and everyone seems to add their experience to the way they communicate.
I don’t believe anyone can justify the repeated bashing of Barbara across a number of threads in quick time with the same comments. There was nothing offered on a constructive or positive note other than how good franchising can be and why franchisees whine when it’s all their fault anyway. The fact is that Barbara put her name up front and centre and I’m sure from time to time there have been other comments where the contributor has taken their experience personally.
After a couple of quick public stoushes with Tom, I received a BMM ‘private message’ from him. The message from Tom was titled ‘Happy F%#** New Year A**^ole’ and followed with my message to him titled ‘Why’. The exchange below relates to the time frame and title for each thread
I admit to not being a saint and being a little bit stupid with this one.
‘Happy’ - GARMON - 2011-01-10 03:56
We are not done with you yet. Nope, just getting started. Unless you want to offer an apology? I would entertain that. Otherwise W*^ker You are doing to be dealing with a technological attack far beyond your ability to conprehend. You think you are smart, you haven't see shit. What you are experiencing is going to be a drop in the bucket. Get ready to start googling you name f**+tart. Watch the google dance and all your dirty laundry moves to page 1. If you don't have enough dirty laundry to fill up the front, we'll figure something else out. Your already in over your head and you don't even know it.
‘Happy’ - RB - 2011-01-10 06:48
Wrong
‘Why’- RB - 2011-01-10 07:53
Tom why did you go after Jorgensen? It not only makes you a public coward but it puts you up as someone in need of help. You should get other opinions on you rant to confirm.
Two things Tom; 1) I have always said I wasn't a lawyer and everyone at BMM knows that so you look silly and 2) there is nothing anyone can do to me in this business that hasn't already been tried with a budget much larger than yours. I don't lie and I don't steal and I don't make money out of this crap so you cannot affect me in the slightest. I mean seriously - if you really think I have concerns about reputation then you are new to this.
However .... why would a broker limit their business to Fitness? That does not make one bit of sense. Say Hi to the rest of the Klan.
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 00:30
Ray, I don't limit my busienss to fitness. That is the only part you see. I sell many different business types and 80% are non franchise unitis not involved in fitness. You will see that I was critical of Curves in the WSJ and critical of Snap and Anytime's investment model. You are so busy on your mission to slander and lit with the village idiot BJ that you don't care about the facts.
‘Why’- RB - 2011-01-11 05:24
You are full of s*h#t you little germ = I don't lie and I don't steal you gutless p(t)rick = f*^+ off
‘Why’ - GARMON - 2011-01-11 12:45
Ray W*^ker,
Lucky for you you don't care. I don't care either. So let's see who cry uncle first mother f*^+er. You are on my drawing board. I have 2 successful companies, Ray. Mainly passive income, and brokerage is something I do becasue I love working with health club owners.
FYI
I am no shill, as I practically roasted Curves Corporate in the Wall Street Journal. And? I consider that a badge of honor. He is ruining that company with his inflated ego and deaf ears to his zees. He is a King with no clothes. When the Waco Tribune called I gave them some more soundbites. I am definately on Heavins s*^t list. He hates my guts, and you know what ? I consider that a badge of honor, much like your sorry, old, ugly, ass.
Merry F%#**ing New Year ! You got more coming your way. W*^KER!
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 17:38
Wanna Play, Ray W*^KER! BWAAAHHAAAAAAHAAAAHAAA
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 17:40
I have a boat load of material! I would never put it all out there at once, now would I. I want you tripping all over yourself.
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 17:43
Wait until the telephone call. Holy Lord! Barbara loves to talk. As us Southern Yanks say across the ..Pond? Is it Pond, Ray. What do you bloked who live WAY down under like you do say?
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 17:43
Did I tell you about my pal Richard Gibson over at the Journal? Do you know Rich? Well, let me tell you, he sure is a nice fellow. I gave him the meat he needed, Ray to give that story outside independant credibility. Did you actually stop to think about who I really am?
‘Why’ - GARMON - 2011-01-11 17:46
Can't wait to play, ray.
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 18:35
Ray W*^ker, let me ask you a quick questions. I am having a little trouble working the quotation marks in the post window. They don't act right.. Can you give me a hand. I know I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. People tend to over estimate me. You help would be sincerely appreciated.
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 18:40
Have you ever heard of an RSS Aggregator? You should google that. They are so cool.
‘Why’- GARMON - 2011-01-11 18:42
FYI, Redacting on your end is futile as I already have screen shots of everything I need.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-11 19:12
Still wrong? "Do you have Who Wants to be a Millionaire" Way down under where you live, Coward?
Is that your final answer? What's the matter Cat got your tongue. Suddenly at a loss for words, asshole?
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-11 19:13
That picture of your is down right creepy. It gives me the willies.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-13 14:10
check my spelling.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-14 12:23
This goes out to you, Ray. Form a Yank to a W^*ker.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-14 12:24
That's from not Form. Sorry, ray. Tell Bobby Hello.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-14 12:54
Your going to J^*l, Ray.
‘Happy’ - GARMON – 2011-01-14 16:01
Barbara sings and sings
To the original poster above
http://sites.google.com/site/1962temp/seanbuckley
he should be furious after being on the receiving end of these tactics. Ray, you are sanctioned fy the Australian Court for these same tactics.
Biting my tongue.
.
Your friend Tom should have
Your friend Tom should have his medication checked up on because somethings gone wrong in the top paddock. Mental illness is sad and Garmon needs help. He needs an intervention before he hurts himself.
Thank you for the vote of mental deficiency "Guest" My Response
Barbara has spent years attacking the fitness industry and franchise industry as a whole. She has totally misrepresented her experience as it related to due diligence, and she has given advice which lacked proper context. She has attacked me over and over along with Ray Borradale in numerous forums in very personal manners. She is always the victim.
I am always happy to debate in a professional manner as evidenced on the various forums of disscussion. Barbara's thought process is hijacked by projectionism from a single bad experience, and her complete, total, and utter lack due diligence the laymen will find it absurd. Personally I find it hard to believe and really would like evidence she every owned af 123FIT. At lease then I can properly classify her as an imbeslie or fraud.
Mental illness is someone who:
Buys a fitness franchise with no fitness leadership
Buys a franchise and never calls a franchisee
Buys a franchise and never visits a locaiton
Buys a franchise and never Googls the brand
Never consulted with a legal of franchise expert / professional.
after the above 4 things
passes herself off as an expert. Experts become experts based on experience and/or education. She claims to have 3000 researching for her mediation. Equilavent to 18 months at 40 hours a week, only to arrive at a conclusion that it would be too costly. Furthermore, She didn't know what a UFOC was just last week as evidenced here.
That is mental illness.
Even Paul Steinburg said every syllable she utters is factually inaccurate.
If you would like to read something with some experience behind it, you can read about the standard fitness center ramp up time here.
Feel Free to read "The Mean Machine and the Destruction of Franchises for Profit" as well.
Tom good luck in selling fitness franchises.
You told me people will not make money if you buy a Curves. You would not go the franchise route. Why? You know the truth. I am positive you will not disclose this to your buyers that you will not go the franchise route. Why? Because you sale them. All you care about is your pocket.
I will endulge you with a response since you seem to enjoy
twisting things. I said "I" would not go the franchise route. I have 20 years experience. I never said people will not make money if they buy a any fitness franchise. I have given advise to people who have experience in managing fitness, and when they are knowledgable on operations, marketing, etc, I tell them that they should consider a non franchise shop. You attack me personally over and over and wonder why I get offended? Barbara, you are the most egotistical, delusional person I have ever come across in 20 years in the business. You are not an expert; you are a fraud.
Tom is not my friend
Thank God.
Keep up that good bashing that makes people laugh.
I know you and Michael are good at it.
Barbara Jorgensen, I think it
Barbara Jorgensen, I think it is interesting how a person can make prophetic proclamations of imminent failure in not only fitness but in franchising for all who dare to delve in yet your experience is based on the facts that you purchased a fitness franchise:
(a) where leadership had no fitness background!
(b) you never had an attorney read anything before she signed!
(c) you never visited a location!
(d) you never Googled her fledgling brand! She told me this on the phone that she was not computer savy and didn't know about the internet, that baby boomers are't that internet savy.
(d) you never contacted a franchisee!
(e) you claims you spent 3000 hours reasearching for you mediation, which you later abandoned as being too expensive, and as evidenced in the snap vs anytime thread, yet you had no idea what a UFOC (now called FDD) was! One would think that after 3000 hours of research she at least know what the UFOC aka FDD is. After all it is / was (now called FDD) what contains all the informaiton on the franchise and is required disclosure by the FTC. I know that and I haven't spent 3000 preparing for one single event in my life!
(f) you had no idea what a UFOC (now called FDD) was! I'll give you a hint. It has the franchise agreement in it.
YOU BLAME THE FOLLOWING
(1) your husband for signed the agreement. Barbara, go give that man a hug and tell him you love him. What a terrible burden for your husband to shoulder all these years.
(2) You actually blames Entrepreneur Magazine for the ad you saw, which evidentially led to your purchase. No I am not joking in the slightest. Barbara told me she thought that those franchise magazines should have laws against the or be regulated. Let me ask you, Barbara, doyou think toys should be banned in Happy Meals as well?
All these years you never bothered to put your experience in context for the benefit of the good reader here. You dismiss anything positive said about the industry.
Tom Garmon you are really transparent.
What is wrong? Are your sales down? Perhaps you can do better doing something else. You will never convince those who have experienced unethical business practices in franchising to believe ANYTHING you say. Give it up Tom. You will never get to me.
Another factor is alot that you wrote was not right. Thanks for coming out in the open and not writing as guest. You fit the typical franchise salesperson. Your not anyone I would want to converse with again. You twist things to fit your own personel agenda. To be blunt. I do not like you.
The whinefest continues
So BJ insultingly says: "What is wrong? Are your sales down? "
There is no rational reason for you to attack TG. He has obviously seen more fitness club P&Ls than you have. You seem to hold it against him that he is a business broker. Why?
Lots of poeple who bought houses have lost money on them; do you also attack real estate brokers for selling houses? A lot of people go to real estate brokers if they want to buy or sell real estate.
People have had their mortgages foreclosed. Do you attack mortgage brokers? A lot of people go to mortgage brokers if they want a mortgage.
Why are business brokers any different?
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