Public Forums of Discussion
share franchise news, to prosper and amuse
Ranter's Soapbox, Way Off Topic Posts
Editor's comment: Posts that are way off topic from the subject of the blog or news article are put in this forum. Forums are general discussions and debates with the community. What happens is someone posts an article on point-of-sales software systems and often someone will post a general observation about their hobby horse topic, such as franchisors only want to make money and franchisees are easily duped.
In contrast to this forum area, blog comments are on narrow topics. They are posted under news articles and blogs to ask a question of the author about their article or to make a comment about the narrow topic of the article.
This forum was created by Truth In Franchising to help keep news article and blog comments on topic.
- forums:
Though the headline was Quiznos
When I read the headline I thought you were talking about Quiznos. They went from 5,000 stores down to 3,636 so far to date.
Q Is Lower
3200 according to what a reliable source heard at a meeting this week in Denver. You can't trust Q's numbers, whether it's food cost, ad budget, or open restaurants. Schaden's a born liar and a lot of his associates are convicted..
I believe in having a vision
In our case franchising killed everything we build. That is why future franchise wannabees be cautious. Find a good concept and really study the FDD.
The old system worked perfectly well for the old boys
Very good points but I would suggest that the legal and franchise systems were natural allies in a former, post-industrial era. It's been an okay ride but all dogs and polyester suits have their day, I would suggest.
"Up" and "more" and "growth" every quarter may actually not be infinitely sustainable concepts.
Franchising relied on a certain data flow that does not exist anymore.
Reputaiton + internet infomation sharing + trust + human memory may actually trump the next Herb Tarlek system offering. The question has moved way beyond "which one", even past the "none" option: it's loud-and-proud buggy-whip salesmanship time.
Empires (and, mercifully, fashion) change and fade away into irrelavance.
But will UPS, the biggest crook, use their influence, power...
...and money to sideline any legislation meant to protect the interests and preserve the legal rights of the "little guy" franchisee? United Parcel Service, one of America's largest corporate enterprises, is turning out to be one of the worst perpetrators of mass fraud and deceipt that can be found in the entire U.S. franchising industry! These allegations of misconduct and corporate thievery will be proven in the upcoming Class Action trial, a "status conference" to be held in early January of 2010! Gordon & Rees' attorneys will be presenting a very strong case, one which alleges both negligent and intentional misrepresentation of material facts in regards to the fiasco/fraud known as the "Gold Shield" program, a now uncovered plot to convert profitable Mail Boxes Etc. centers into unprofitable (for the store owner) The UPS Store locations! In accordance with UPS's devious and well thought out plan, all of these stores have morphed into unpaid drop-off locations that predominantly service UPS's Internet and corporate accounts businesses, and not the business of the small and vulnerable UPS Store franchisee! They steal the commerce and dollars he needs to simply keep the business open! Funds are siphioned off by this greedy, giant Corporation to the detriment of this hard-working, yet easily victimized, "little guy" store owner! UPS makes all the money, he does all the work! ...and also pays the bills that keeps the easily accessible storefront "drop-box" open! So it is fantastic that President Obama is now aware of the problem of rampant fraud and abuse that can be found throughout the entire mega-billion dollar U.S. franchise industry! Led by UPS, these vipers and con-men have destroyed the lives and dreams of many an innocent entreprenure, the hard-working but victimized business franchisee! But again, UPS has alot of money, and no doubt they will try to influence (to their benefit) legislation covering laws concerning U.S. franchising! Hoping to operate above the law and without observing high standards of [business] ethics and moral principle, UPS will surely try to buy their way out of the fraud they have allegedly (but soon to be proven actually) committed! Lets hope they fail both in lobbying lawmakers, and in screwing over the much abused and very frustrated UPS Store franchisee! 2010 may be a good year for the entire franchise industry..if they can get rid of the crooks and allow the many honest and trustworthy franchisors to operate, grow and profit in a fair and equitable manner! In the U.S. Government, the small guy may finally have found a very valuable and trustworthy friend!
Q Weight Loss Spokesman
Big deal. As a Quiznos franchisee I worked so many hours, got so little rest and ate so little from the stress that in the one year we owned it I went from 215 to 157 at 5'11''. Of course as the winner of Q's biggest loser program I didn't lose just weight. I also lost my $300,000 investment which translate to $5,000 per pound. A little expensive but you really can't put a price on health, eh?
Boat trip
How many dealers refused to have dinner with Jeff and Boots on the Alaska cruise. Didn't Jeff send Joe to threaten the troops if they didn't immediately report to the place Jeff was eating. Leadership, that's a perfect example of the PMD management style.
Recent pictures of Jeff indicate he's at dinner most of the time. The guy gets bigger by the day.
re: Boat trip
Epic display of Joe Armetta's lack of composure. Joe snapped and threatened Mitch publicly with termination. Mitch proceeded to refuse Joe's treats.
Basically Mitch publicly PUNKED Joe Armetta. Unfortunately, vaious PMD wife's left the table crying.
I'm not sure what Joe Armetta did to qualify for the cruise? His performance for 2008 was obviously substandard.
For 2009 PMD has been a clinic in dysfunctional leadership. Hopefully 2010 will be a better year.
Welcome to the NFL!
There are several notable exceptions- even amongst the great.
Even if you limit the market to new project franchisees of the great who have come to me to extricate them, you are talking about close to a dozen real bozo deals that the franchisees wish to heaven had been competently vetted.
Within even the great companies like a Marriott or any of the others, terrible things happen due to the politics of management.
When that happens and the economics turn out not to meet the targets the sponsors within management told the committee they would meet, those management sponsors seem always to look for ways to change the economics to their favor by taking it out of the franchisees' revenue stream.
When this happens, there are enough trap clauses in the franchise agreement permitting changes in how the system operates to enable fees and charges to be imposed beyond what was in the concept when acquired or first rolled out.
Especially for this reason it is very dangerous to buy a new concept franchise from a major company. If the history of the concept turns out not to produce the promised contribution dollars, the franchisees are put upon to make up the difference.
This goes way beyond hotel franchises. The big successful name is never an extraordinary positive reason to invest in its franchises. It often seems like it is, and it is always sold as if it is, but those are false impressions more times than not.
Richard Solomon, FranchiseRemedies.com, has over 45 years experience with franchise litigation and crisis management. He is a graduate of The Citadel and The University of Michigan Law School
Since 90% of all franchisors
Since 90% of all franchisors make no earnings claims in Item 19, I would imagine there are a great many franchisors who are breaking the law by using the system-wide sales in trade publications and the media.
But, of course, the FTC doesn't enforce the prohibition against earnings claims (FPR's) made outside of the FDD's and the franchisors know this. There is no private right of action anyway for violating the FTC Rule for franchisees, and probably the violators would only have to go to "school" and the violation would be obscured from the view of the public. What a joke! The FTC Rule is just a subsidy for the franchisors.
What about startup costs that are an implied earning claim or financial performance representation that doesn't have to be substantiated with any FACTS that the FTC permits the franchisors to use with impunity on the Internet in spite of their so called advertising rules that prevent unsubstantiated performance claims.
the hag is back
I thought this nasty old hag was banned from this site? Up to her old ricks again I see.
The FTC Rule is just a subsidy for the franchisors.
Does anyone here challenge these ridiculous accusations?
According to the hag the FTC rule exists for the singular purpose of subsidizing franchisors. Does any lucid individual think that is actually the case?
This is nonsense. This old broad cannot get over the fact she married a moron and beget an idiot. Because these imbeciles were STUPID enough to go into the pac and ship business we have to endure her endless diatribes, same thing over and over again: The FTC is at the beck and call of the franchisors. The GOvernment is in conspiracy with the franchisors and, now drum roll folks, Carol then will claim only more Government is the solution! Mind you this is the same senile old bat who wrote letter after letter to the editor supporting John Edwards as a fine upstanding moral man, the man we needed to lead this nation and do what was right for our families ! Yes, what a fine specimen of family values he turned out to be.
Here this an here it loud you stupid nasty old hag, the FTC nor an Government agency could not and can not protect imbeciles like your STUPID husband or your retarded son from being total idiots. They were the problem, they bough into a stupid, stupid concept because they were morons. Al the disclosure in the world could not protect them from their own stupidity. Heck it is obvious, did the Government stop your husband from marrying you? Heck no it did not. And as result he had an idiot for a son! How come you are not whining about that? Shouldn't the Government sterilize morons such as yourself? Doesn't it have duty to minimize the impact on morons on the productive members of society?
The FTC and the Government is not the problem, idiots like you are the problem.
Class Actions
Of course, naive and unsophisticated franchisees have no understanding of how a "bankruptcy" of a franchisor who has borrowed funds under a "whole business securitization" can influence the judge and the attorneys involved in class actions where "fair" settlements would put the franchisor in danger of bankruptcy.
The Judge is put between a "legal" rock and a hard place, isn't he. If he doesn't approve the "token" settlement and the franchisor does declare bankruptcy and reorganize, the franchisees who have secured judgments are unsecured creditors and would get almost nothing, instead of pennies.
Whole Business Securitization is a Prudent Practice
Carol there is nothing nefarious or untoward with regard to Whole Business Securitization.
Nothing Nefarious or Untoward in Whole Business Securitizations?
Never said there was, did I! All very legal with new accounting rules, and everything -- and part of the "stacked deck" against franchisees under current law and regulation and the Class Action Fairness Act.
It may be in the future that even those who invest in the franchisor's paper will question whether or not "Whole Business Securitization" is a "prudent practice" as you say -- that is, if the Government won't continue to bail out those who sell bad paper to the public out of the need to protect innocent Institutional Investors.
http://thegreatfranchisingrobbery.blogspot.com
You more than implied it...By describing it as part of a
"stacked deck".
You conflate contract law, class action litigation, bankruptcy law, accounting and franchising into some kind of diabolical construct with one problem. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. You make no sense.
You might make sense to an anarcho-communist at the next G8 conference.
Except with Jon Luther
Jon Luther is scheduled to be the Chairman of the IFA.
He has been head of Dunkin Brands where he has done nothing but talk to franchisees since he has been in control.
Not much two way conversation there, Jon is a one way street when it comes to conversation.
I ask any Dunkin Donuts franchisee to tell us one thing Jon Luther has done to put money in your pocket.
Jon has a hearing defect when it comes to franchisees.
He has done nothing but take from franchisees:
1. Litigation against franchisees, aka Steve Horn
2. NGSS - Promises and representations never materialized
3. Supermarket Coffee - 100's of millions out of franchisees and DCP pockets
4. NTO's like Hess Gas Stations
5. Sara Lee Channeling
6. Westward Ho, on the backs of the DCP, and national advertising
7. Advertising Ad Fund disclosure, yea right
8. Jon's Mini Me: Joe Scafido, what has he done for you, we haven't seen a home run new product since.......bagels?
Jon may have two ears and one mouth, but he never uses them in that proportion.
As chiarman of the IFA he will never listen.
Just watch him smile, he has a very big grin.
How come more Granville's don't write?
It amazes me that Granville has been the lotto winner here and chosen a worthwhile zor. How many grand stories do we hear of? Not too many. Regardless I am happy Granville is so lucky to had found a great zor. He is also very lucky to have all the knowledge. Aren't you a lawyer Granville? Us unfortunate former zees who weren't very lucky had to be the guilty ones, right? I suppose you think misrepresentation in enducing a person to sign on the dotted line is okay. You have to know the whole stories of all the taken ones. You are fortunate than most. You have alot to be thankful for this Thanksgiving season.
too busy counting their money and running their business
"It amazes me that Granville has been the lotto winner here and chosen a worthwhile zor. How many grand stories do we hear of? Not too many."
I have said before that BMM is a symbiotic organism for: 1) Hurt Zees to "testify" as to how they were taken; 2) Wannabee Zees who are absolutely clueless and ask things like "so what is the best franchise to buy"; 3) Consultants who offer to provide Killer Due Dil (for a price). The Hurt Zees scare the Wannabees into the arms of the Consultants.
Meanwhile the successful Zees have little reason to take the time to post here. (I just do it for amusement.) They don't feel a need to be heard or validated, or to "warn others".
Of course there are rogue Zors. There are also Nigerian Money Order scammers on the internet. So many of the Hurt Zees seem to be credulous "nice" folks who would also cash money orders and remit the proceeds thinking they had a Home Occupation. The difference is knowledge. Go ahead and hire someone to do your Due Dil as a substitute for your own knowledge.
My wife had years of experience in the system we later bought into. She was General Manager for the Zor and had run several Zor-pwned units. Does your Zor have Zor-owned units? Can you go work in one as a Manager? Our Zor doesn't have commission sales agents going around selling units. Basically, you have to convince them you are qualified to have one. There is no such thing as a SNO in our system. We do not buy any food or paper from our Zor. Etc., etc. Our "local" Zee co-op (small region, something less than 100 stores) meets monthly. The larger combined Zor regions (about 500 stores) meets quarterly. National is every couple of years. Why would you buy into something that doesn't have at least most of this?
Many of the horror stories posted here would have been obvious poor deals to anyone with deep industry knowledge. (I differ with the prevailing zeitgeist here that claims that as long as you hire Killer Due Dil you will be okay.) Why would anyone with any knowledge buy such crap? Having actual operating knowledge in the industry you are going to be in business in, helps a LOT in avoiding bad deals. I pity the fools who go in with no knowledge thinking it isn't necessary as they are buying a "proven system".
And that's why few successful Zees post here. They don't need to. There are thousands and thousands of us, and not just in our system.
follow-up: preparation does not ensure success
But it sure makes it a heckuva lot more likely!
It is human nature to take credit when one is successful, claiming it is due to their hard works, smarts, dedication, etc. Just as it is human nature to blame outside forces when one fails. There is a degree of luck involved in both success and failure but over time people do indeed MAKE THEIR OWN LUCK.
Go in on a wings and a prayer, knowing little to nothing, depending on the "proven system" and two weeks' training to make you successful, and you will NEED to be lucky to succeed. Whereas if you knew WTF you were doing to begin with, you'd be a lot less likely to buy into one of the low percentage, most Zees doomed from the start, systems that we here so much about. These systems are structurally deficient and in some cases exist only to make money for the Zor selling franchises and collecting franchise fees.
Yes, as has been noted, I am a lawyer (NOT a "franchise lawyer") but also a professional business/financial manager (complete with MBA). I have owned several businesses before, and I have run departments and divisions of larger organizations. And my wife had years and years "in the business" working for the Zor. You don't have to be as qualified as we are to be in business, but it sure helps. Being a Single Mom who raised a family on a tight budget, etc., etc. may make you a Nice Person but it isn't a business qulaification. Being newly unemployed isn't a business qualification.
As I have said before, DON'T BUY A FRANCHISE IN A HURRY. Jeez, I even wrote an article that was posted here on BMM about that very subject. Know what you are doing going in and then you wouldn't be dependant on Killer Due Dil from a consultant.
You don't understand its not luck...
Selecting a franchise and being successful have little do to with luck.
In fact people who fail tend to be believe luck determines their fate and isn't it convenient that if it is all about being lucky then why bother being diligent since it won't matter.
Barbara we make our own luck.
Have a lucky weekend!
Thanks for a lucky weekend
However, if you do not believe there are rouge zors out there, who is being realistic? If most in a franchise system have been screwed, doesn't it seem too obvious?
Re: Thanks for a lucky weekend
No it's not obvious in fact your post missed the point entirely.
You don't believe there are scammers in
franchising? It is always the victims fault? If this is true NO ONE should go the franchising route.
Barbara you are viewed as a benign poster on BMM
But the reality is your posts perpetuate bad practices, poor decision making and the belief in luck by potential franchisees. You are a danger to yourself and others. You lack wisdom.
You are no more an authority on franchising than Solomon is on the mating habits of Big Foot.
People who have been victims of rouge franchising
are indeed experts. I do not encourage bad practices or poor decision making. You saying this shows your lack of wisdom. You must be a zor or a shill.
Those Red Commie Rouge Franchises
very appropriate for you, Barbara.
Red Commie Rouge Franchises
I like it. Great name for rouge zors. I can come up with more. I am afraid it won't be appropriate to post what names I have for rouge zors.
Barbara...
It's Rogue not Rouge.
Thanks for the spelling correction
People who love to write always need an editor. Thanks.
People who love to write...
should still think first about what they have to say and then write!
Is that what's wrong with you?
Umm!
Umm...Indeed!
Please Barbara, you may think you are helping but you are not. You advice is barely actionable...avoid 123Fit, Quizno's and Smashburger, what then pussycat?
You are making me laugh
Thanks.
Barbara...well there is laughimg
I implore you to seek qualified help.
I am sure you are an expert in seeking
qualified help.
So far all you've done is show you are on the wrong side. The side that purposely hurts people. Who really needs the help?
Barbara, you are being foolish
You are clueless and self-deceived.
Clueless? Self-deceived?
Guest, please look in the mirror.
I see myself very clearly...
Barbara please quit embarrassing yourself and get help.
Guest you are embarrassing yourself
You cannot even see that I have weathered the storm. I am dealing with being duped. I write here to warn people that there are people in high places that purposely hurt others in the world of franchising. You are only making yourself look bad.
Franchising is akin to crack cocaine trafficking
While crack cocaine is illegal, franchising is legally a moral hazard that Barbara Jorgensen and Carol Cross Eblen have attempted to ban. Barbara and Carol are modern day Carry Nations.
Ridulous guest
I do not want franchising banned. I want rogue franchising banned. If you are a fair dealing zor, I am all for your success. Being a true success does not involve premeditating the financial demize of anyone.
How do you determine rogue franchises and when?
Is it at the first offering or 1000th? Who decides which are rogues and which the ones wearing white hats?.
Rogue zors could be wearing white hats also
That is part of the deception.
Didn't your parents teach you the difference between bad and good? Right or wrong?
No, I learned my values from experience
It seems you have learned very little. Although you seem to have a firm belief in luck.
You are boring me guest
Good night!
I'm surprised you lasted as long as you have...
given you attention span.
some can't
Barbara, some can't see beyond their own experiences.
Funny that this guest insists because his experience is different that therefore means ours must be of our own making.
Everyone makes mistakes but do those mistakes mean we should pay with our life savings?
Buying a franchise based on verbal representations and existing ideas about franchising did turn out to be a large mistake.
I guess we should just allow them to continue to misrepresent and steal after all that is what the potential zee deserves.
Thanks for the posts Barbara.
if you are that naive...
"Everyone makes mistakes but do those mistakes mean we should pay with our life savings?
Buying a franchise based on verbal representations and existing ideas about franchising did turn out to be a large mistake."
f you are that naive, well yeah, maybe that IS an appropriate result. Yeah, it's illegal to 'mug' someone too, but if I walk drunk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood at 2 AM while counting my big roll of money, whose fault is it really if someone bops me on the head and takes my money? Like taking candy from a baby!
There seem to be an awful lot of folks here who had NO BUSINESS putting their life savings into a business venture they knew nothing about. If all you have to go on are verbal representations and some unsubstantiated pre-exiting notions, then you had no business putting your life savings at risk.
Not much to do with "should" (lose you money that is). Just that sometimes that's (unfortunately) what happens if you screw up and make a poor deal. But a real entrepreneur picks themselves up, dusts themselves off, and starts all voer again. How many times has Donald Trump had projects go bankrupt or bust?
Granville the last book I read by Trump
Trump has never gone bankrupt.
Hey BJ, Is Trump A Rogue Zor?
Reportedly, one of Trumps recent strategies has been to license his name (thus making him a Zor as in Licensor) to various projects such as hotels or casinos (making them Zees as in Licencees). Trump doesn't necessarily put any of his own money into the project, the Zees put up the money.
If he has structured the License to pay top line royalties, then he gts a % of the gross whether or not the Zee is making any money (just like a Zor).
Well several of these Trump branded projects have gone into distress and sometimes even bankruptcy. The lenders take a beating and the Zees may even get wiped out, while Trump's personal fortune is protected. It wasn't his money at risk, it was the Zees' money that was lost. While Trump personally doesn't get bankrupted by this, his projects and maybe his Zees do.
So why don't you call Trump a Rogue Zor too? Instead you believe his bullshit book?