Quiznos: A Tragic Ending to a Franchisee's Plight

December 7th, 2006

The Whittier Daily News in California reported that Bob Baber walked into the restroom of a Quiznos restaurant on November 27, and shot himself three times. A detective on the scene reported that he had this letter in his possession.

The letter is posted below.

Life goes on and we pass through Days of sunlight days of tears It’s the way life comes to you Foolish wasting precious years

I am not a fool. My wife is not a fool
I even refuse to call myself gullible. I am not a gullible. My wife is not a gullible

We trusted in Quiznos. They promised us success, help and everything else to get us to buy into the “dream” they were selling. They had a private secret unannounced agenda! To trap you and screw you, the franchisee!

We are not fools. But, we have been fooled

We are like so many others who also bought into this dream and lost a substantial portion of their life’s savings.

Countless individuals and families have been destroyed. Even some lives have been lost

I have struggled hard and did the best I could to create a voice for the franchisees in the system and to create a “support system” for the franchisees, which does not exist, and to fight the injustices of this franchise system (Quiznos). Not to bring the system down, but only to make it fair.

I hope my efforts will not go wasted. I hope the government will look into the systematic deceitful business practices of this franchisor. A serious investigation must be undertaken

It’s been a tough battle

I have been dragged through the legal system for over 18 months by the immensely superior financial might of the franchisor, which will continue to keep justice from coming to me, and to the hundreds and thousands of franchisees who are trapped similarly in the system and are slaving for this franchisor, and those who have bought into the franchise agreement, and not yet become store operators

I have spent and sacrificed my time, money, family life. I thought of an option to leave the system quietly and fade away, but now I choose not to do that, and instead let the struggle go on

My struggle will continue after my sacrifice.

Some one must do something about what Quiznos is doing to the trapped franchisees. Everything they do is in their own self interest, with utter disregard for the interests of the franchisees, to who they sold the “dream” and put into business, only to screw them systematically from day one

The press and the media must bring out the atrocities Quiznos is carrying on with.

In this franchise system the Franchisor has all the rights and no duties or obligations, whereas it is just the opposite for the Franchisee, which is the franchisee has no rights, no remedies, only obligations

I have not been able to think well, eat well, for the past one month

My health has been going down very fast

My mental capacity, to think, to work, and carry on my daily activities normally, is severely diminished

I cannot survive like this much longer
Quiznos has killed me. Destroyed my life. Destroyed my family life for the past seven years It has been a harrowing experience. We just could not get out of it. All doors were shut
Can some one stop this?

Can the government stop this Quiznos from destroying peoples lives? They have defrauded me and they are defrauding people. See my law suit (complaint) how they defrauded me from the very beginning, and then continued their systematic defrauding through out the period, until we left

They retaliated against me for trying to create a voice for the franchisees in the system We were abused, we were manipulated, we were exploited,
I deeply regret getting in to Quiznos. I wish I had never heard of them

Can the media stop this?
CNN we need your help. Nancy Grace, please help! Glora Alred? Who else? KTLA, LA Times, OC Register Please

How can a common individual like me and those like me in similar circumstances, there are thousands, with limited resources get justice?

I believe there will be justice. But it will be too late for me.

There are a large and growing number of us who believe, unreservedly, that the handful of people who own and/or otherwise control the Quiznos Corporation should spend the rest of their lives in prison. The Quiznos Corporation is just one of the most egregious in what they do, but the entirety of franchising in America is open to this kind of abuse. The IFA (International Franchise Association) is the umbrella entity that, along with individual Franchisors, has enough money and power to buy the legislation that protects the Franchisor, and exploits the Franchisee. Fair and just legislation, that would level the playing field, never sees the light of day. Senators and Representatives, primarily Republicans, continue to sell hard working Americans down the river. STAY FAR, FAR AWAY FROM THE QUIZNOS CORPORATION. THEY ARE CRIMINAL IN WHAT THEY DO. And treat any Franchise System with deep suspicion

Signed: Bob Baber

These files are on the USB drive

* Read Toasted Subs Franchisee Association's dedicated page to Bob Baber [Editor's note: The dedicated page was pulled off the site.]

Janet Sparks

Janet Sparks is a freelance reporter who writes about complex issues related to the franchise industry, including the litigation between franchisors and franchisees.She is the former publisher of Continental Franchise Review, an industry newsletter that covered the franchise community for over 30 years, and was an independent reporter/columnist for a leading franchise magazine for over 10 years. Sparks is also a Forbes.com contributor to its leadership/franchise section. She can be emailed at jsparks@bluemaumau.org.

Comments

April 5, 2007 - 00:42am

quiznos

i have worked for quiznos for 4 years now. and I'm tired of hearing my boss how quiznos messed up his whole life. he now has to dig into his own pocket, cause quizno depends on the coupons to bring in there costumers.. I'm mean if you have to pay 1500$ to buy your food and you cant even get it delivered to you without paying an extra 200$ a week to get it..there good subs but if you got to lie to ur franchize owners just to get them to open up new stores.they tell you that you will make all this money but they forget to monition (you got to pay royalties) let say you make 12000$ in amonth they take 11000$ and you get the rest to buy your food, paper, labor... then you will have problems.. like the guy who shot himself...take it from me you DO NOT WANT TO OPEN YOUR OWN STORE unless you would like to pay out of pocket

December 7, 2006 - 17:02pm

I didn't know Bob well, but

I didn't know Bob well, but I know that he spent a lot of time and effort trying to work WITH quiznos to make things better, but the corporate group sued him for speaking out and tried to shut down his stores.....Hopefully the loss of his life with help Quiznos corporate group realize there actually is a problem!

December 7, 2006 - 20:49pm

A disturbing story of a franchisee till the bitter end

I've never been an advocate for Quiznos as a franchise opportunity. Over the years I've questioned the business model, real estate acquisition strategy, the practices used to build the brand and the requirement for franchisees to purchase product from Quiznos.

I've worked with existing Quiznos franchisees and have heard many horror stories about their experiences with the franchisor. This is one of the most disturbing personal accounts I've ever read about someone’s life destroyed by franchising. Not just financial ruin but a life taken because the victim saw no other way out.

I didn't personally know Bob, but my thoughts go out to his family and to all those who face or feel a similar plight.

Jim Coen, Franchise Perfection, 877-469-3002, jim@franchiseperfection.com, www.franchiseperfetion.com

Visit my blog at Let's Talk Franchising

Mr. Blue MauMau

December 8, 2006 - 00:44am

A Few Rules of Posting

It's a blue moon out in Blue MauMau-land tonight. I had to pull a post, something that is almost never done. Here's why.

As a public community, we ask for civility - even when the subject-matter is disturbing, like this story. Postings with spam links, insults, extremely lewd language or threats (even in jest) will be removed. We also dislike wild accusations and prefer facts, or at least weblinks to facts.

Guests are most welcome. All of Blue MauMau's news, info, franchise links and tools are accessible to guests for free. In return, we hope guests will post comments, experiences and stories of buying and owning a franchise - the good and the bad - as you understand it. Guests can post anonymously (we get some of our best tips that way) but please understand that the best reader response and following is when you register on the site - also free. Registered members have their names attached to their articles. Readers better trust articles from those whom they know something about.

Mr. Blue MauMauCommunity Umpire

December 8, 2006 - 14:30pm

Thank you Janet

Janet: Thank you for sharing this tragedy with us.

Jeff Johnson, FranSurvey.com

December 8, 2006 - 14:45pm

Quiznos For Sale

On bizbuysell, there are 373 Quiznos for sale out of a total of 500 listed in the restaurant category. What do you think is going on here? These are Quiznos for sale on one site. How many more are for sale by owner, listed with a broker or on the verge of closing? Quiznos is a house of cards getting ready to collapse.

December 9, 2006 - 10:49am

Tragedy

Posting comments about this tragedy is understandable. Posting this man's suicide note on this site (in my opinion) is at least a bad idea and is at most morally reprehensible.

To those responsible for posting this note, if your family member committed suicide, would you want the note posted on cyberspace?

In respect of Bob Baber's family and loved ones, please take this note down.

Joe Mathews

Franchise Performance GroupCo-author Street Smart Franchising

December 9, 2006 - 12:54pm

Posting of Bob's note

Bob's wife wants the world to see what Quiznos did to them. It was posted with her permission.

December 10, 2006 - 10:16am

Quiznos will eat you alive

Like Bob Baber, I was also tricked into buying a Quiznos franchise. And let me tell you that the FAILURE rate of Quiznos is a lot higher than what the company is leading the public to believe.First of all, a majority of franchise owners DO NOT GET THEIR FUNDING FROM THE SBA. A lot of us have the funds to invest(?) in this business on our own. As a former Quiznos owner I was privy to weekly reports and by my calculation, the failure rate of Quiznos stores is on the order of magnitude of 25%!In addition, there are many owners that have spouses with full time jobs to help pay the Quiznos bills. If this wasn't true, then the failure rate of Quiznos stores would be closer to 50%.

December 10, 2006 - 11:40am

Sounds like Quiznos Arrogance

The comments made by fransynergy are classic pro franchisor rhetoric. What fransynergy lacks in abundance is the ability to listen. Fransynergy just doesn’t want to hear the negative comments about Quiznos. Fransynergy said “It is not time to continue to pour fuel on the fire. I applaud both Greg & Joe for standing up and demonstrating the type of leadership which will allow franchising to grow, and not adding fuel to the fire which only hurts us all! I call on other franchise leaders to do the same!” Who are you to pass judgment when is the right time for someone to express their opinions? A guest posted "If Quiznos wants your opinion, they will give it to you."Is that the type of leadership fransynergy is talking about? Are you including franchisees in “us all”? Your arrogance which sounds frightfully similar to Quiznos, borders on criminal, and certainly anti-franchisee, but then I guess I’m just a franchisee, certainly not the one of the so called “franchise leaders” you call on.

December 10, 2006 - 13:56pm

I am a current owner

I am a current a owner of one of these store. I know Mr. Baber's feeling. I opened a store 2 years ago and talked with Quiznos about my personal situation and if it were okay for me open. I told them I have a handicap father and a mother who is terminally ill, if i open one of these stores will I make enough to help pay for medical bills and their house payments. I wasn't looking to get rich what-so-ever, I had already made enough working in engineering and I have good health and have many years I can continue to work. They told me "You'll make so much money, you won't know what to do with it!" Of course I was skeptical about that but after reviewing so many other franchises and calling the numbers they provided me (which are to stores that make like a million a year and the owners live on a boat, own private jets, etc. They also told me I would hardly have to work and they have a good program in place to help each owner and owners out. I went with building one. They told me initially I only needed 170K to built the store and it was very easy to get an SBA loan. That was false. I had to get a different loadn cause SBA would only approve 10K, and to make matters worse the total bill came out to 250K not 170K. To make matters worse, the prices in Quiznos stores are so high because you must have minimum 2 employees at all times, even when there are only like 10 coustomers in a 5 hour period. They own your hours of operation, they tell you when to open and to close and thats it or a 700 dollar fine. To drive prices even higher food costs are outrageous. There is only about 800 dollar profit I make a month and the rest goes to Quiznos, Quizno's food, Franchise Fee, Muzak, and some to employees (This is the least cost), out of 460K. Yes this is true. i don't pay myself I can't afford to because I need the 800 dollars a month for cleaning windows, floor buffing and misc. expenses like fridge maintance, uniforms, etc. I work in the store well over 60 hours a week. And i watch my parents passing away in front of my eyes. My wife couldn't take it, so she moved out, I told her too. Were still married, but it was hard to watch her see me suffer for so many unpaid hours, with bills pilling up.

Quiznos Franchise is a relationship killer. Don't get in if you have kids or a spouse.

December 10, 2006 - 20:42pm

The story below is so

The story below is so true... I was told that I would make a lot of money. In my first year, I broke even. In my second year, I came out negative $5,000 because quizno's did not tell me that another store is going to open up on the next block. I have had my store up for sale for a year and half and have had not one offer because quizno's build stores on every block practically in this city. The guy below says he paid $250,000 for his store but that's nothing! ! I was told my store was going to cost $170,000 also but yet the store comes to cost of $350,000. I didn't know what the total cost was going to be until I paid my $25,000 of franchise fees in which I had to open my store within 12 months or I was told that I would loose my franchise fee. My husband and I work 7 days a week, yet we were told we would only have to work 5 to 10 hours a week. And the regional director would help us keep the store fully staffed and hire proper managers. But yet, just recently the regional director was bought out by quizno’s and he now lives on his yacht in the Great Lakes.

December 10, 2006 - 23:01pm

To bob Frankman

To bob frankman

I feel for Bob Baber I really do…. That’s why im posting this reply. People should know that he's not alone in his feeling and problems with this corporation and why he may have driven himself to death.

In response:

Guest: "There is only about 800 dollar profit I make a month and the rest goes to Quiznos, Quizno's food, Franchise Fee, Muzak, and some to employees (This is the least cost), out of 460K."

Bob, most stores only do 300k to 400k a year. I’m actually even lucky that I do 60k more a year. At the beginning of the year, Quiznos tried getting us owners to work even harder than we already are to push revenues up. They gave us a calendar with 4 spots per day, and REQUIRED us to go door door, yes us owners and push our sales higher. We had to do it, or we didn’t pass our inspection. I barely passed. When your working in the store 7 days a week its hard to find energy to go out door to door and do this. My employees felt so bad, that they actually volunteered (yes without pay) to go and give out coupons every couple days after work. We printed out a map, because Quiznos wanted us to do this in a 2 mile radius of our store, and employees and I would blotch out the business and residents that we visited. You ask me, Quiznos should get some of their marketing people, who sit around all day, down here and have them go door to door and do it themselves. Local business owners, and residents alike couldn’t believe that, here the owner of the quiznos, was going around doing this. Some were appalled that I would come and knock on there door and provide them with coupons. They didn’t even want them regardless of “Free Sandwich”. In todays market of mass stream media advertisement and vast marketing schemes the so called “door to door salesman” approach doesn’t work.

To answer your other questions:

1. Bob I am still an owner and still here at the store, gonna mop and finish the dishes.

2. I had a class of 33 people. I made friends with 4. Here is the breakdown:

a. Owner 1, won a lottery and spend 1/3 on quiznos, 1/3 on a house and saved the rest. He sold his store a month later. He was fuming, when he told me what his profits were like, after all bills were paid. He sold his store for half.

b. Owner 2, spent his life saving of his and his wife. He sold his store for exactly what he paid for it, except now the job he quit of 19 years in hopes of being financially free from quiznos was now gone and he has had to start over.

c. Owner 3, received a fabulous location and is still owner. He paid his store off within 6 months of opening.

d. Owner 4, broke even every month for 1 ½ years, became exhausted and just ended up selling for a loss.

3. bob I just can’t get to 600k, I just can’t. I’m mentally beat, exhausted from working numerous hours, days, and weeks, and I’ve lost a lot of weight. I never see my family, my mother and father. I’m wanting to get out, but I need time to find a buyer.

This is the breakdown of your costs:

1. Food 29%

2. Labour 20%

3. discounts 4%

4. Paper 2%

I have yet to meet an owner currently that can achieve these goals on a daily basis. Especially if your food is high, Quiznos fines you for the year end total, because they think you scammed them, but they don’t think that maybe employees don’t weight the meat and cheeses out time to time when there are a million customers at lunchtime. One owner had to pay 7 thousand dollar fine. They also don’t think that maybe your store gives a free sandwich to your employees and they forget to just ring it up as a employee meals.

Another thing to remember is that at the beginning of the year there was a mandatory meeting that quiznos has that everyone must fly to (depending on there location they are setup regionally) and at that meeting we were told that food costs were going down and our profits would be going up. Instead they gradually rose to what they are right now. Plain and simple outrageous. I would say 20% higher then what they were at the beginning of the year.

Quiznos corporation also think of owners like measly humans. They talk to us like we inherited the money, or found it under a rock and we just woke up today and invested in a Quiznos. Were not that stupid. Were Doctors, Engineers, and many other professions in hopes of financial freedom. Many of us put ourselves through college made some money, wanted to get out of the rat race. One example of this is when your store is inspected. The inspector always says one thing, and then they always seem to understand, but have never ran a store from day one, ever. Then the next time they enter your store, they tell you another thing and why are you doing this that way? Or this way? That’s because the same inspector told you last time to do it that way. Your there everyday you know what he said, but they always insist that they are right and write you up. Still yet they have never ran a store. It’s a mess. You run out for a quick errand, buy paper, go to the bank, it doesn’t matter, if the inspector walks in and your not there, you just received a “red” basically failed. I know, I’ve been doing this for awhile. The inspector always wants to walk in when the owner is there, bottom line.

“Be your own Boss!” Its all false. Steve Shaffer, his cronies in the company, regional directors (which all got bought recently so we now have no local support unless your in Colorado), and the inspectors are your Boss.

Bob, if you feel that this is just one experience, not a nationwide epidemic of unhappy owners. I vow to you to go into your local quiznos and survey them. Be gentle and polite and just ask them if there happy. 8 out of 10 will open up and tell you there horror stories.

December 8, 2006 - 14:30pm

Thank you Janet

Janet: Thank you for sharing this tragedy with us.

Jeff Johnson, FranSurvey.com

December 11, 2006 - 00:27am

Bob Baber - a tragedy

This an American Dream turned into a tragedy by the big Corporation headed by a lawer. It shows how this franchise system is so currupt that the only way out for a hardworking family is for one of them to commit suicide with a hope of drawing some attention to their plight and help the rest of the franchisees like them.

God Bless the members of the Baber family.

December 11, 2006 - 09:08am

How could this have been prevented?

1. A number of the Quiznos franchisees believe that they were tricked or mislead into buying a Quiznos franchise.2. But the current law on disclosure would probably not recognize these as valid claims: it was all in the UFOC.3. So, what would those franchisees do differently if they were researching Quiznos, now? What do they think the (3) biggest tricks played on them were? How was the UFOC misleading?My sincere best wishes to the Baber family.Michael Webster PhD LLB Psychology of Compliance and Due Diligence Law www.bizop.ca

December 11, 2006 - 09:31am

Michael,

Michael,Many Quiznos owners who are themselves honest and moral. These individuals surround themselves with people of the same character. They in turn are not exposed to the corrupt salespeople who prey on their naivety. Many of these individuals were verbally sold a line of B.S. Quiznos hides behind these verbal claims by pointing out the legalease in the UFOC. Bottom line is that many Quiznos owners gained an education out of buying into this system. They now realize the importance of getting it in writing. We mistakenly assume that Quiznos corporate would do the morally right thing. They seem to be on relatively firm ground legally speaking but this does not make it right. One day, these individuals will answer to a higher power.

December 12, 2006 - 02:45am

THE QUIZNOS MODEL

I have operated Quiznos franchise in Chicago and I am among the lucky ones who came out of this catch22, financially shaken but not ruined. My comments may help those who do not understand what is actually wrong with Quiznos.

An average Quiznos in Chicago has $7600 fixed monthly expense i.e., $3400 rent, $2000 loan repayment and $2200 for operating expeneses like utilities, insurance equipment rentals Payroll taxes,and accounting etc.

After taking off 33% food and paper cost, 20% labor, 8 % discounts and 11% royalty the owner is left with 28% sales to meet these fixed expenses. He/She needs $6300 sales per week just to breakeven. Unfortunately in Chicago very few Quiznos have such sales volume. If you add a decent salary for owner's time then the desired sales figure becomes even more unattainable.

That is the reason so many owners are really working for nothing. It is no secret that out of the 160 or so Quiznos in Chicago 80% are for sale or want to sell but cannot find buyers.

To make things worse Quiznos corporation forces owners to use only designated providers for even simple things like accounting, payroll processing, insurance, towels and knifes service. If one is lucky to find a buyer it also demands thousands of dollars in transfer fee and updates from the owner.

In conclusion for most people in Chicago the Quiznos model is not working.

December 9, 2006 - 10:49am

Tragedy

Posting comments about this tragedy is understandable. Posting this man's suicide note on this site (in my opinion) is at least a bad idea and is at most morally reprehensible.

To those responsible for posting this note, if your family member committed suicide, would you want the note posted on cyberspace?

In respect of Bob Baber's family and loved ones, please take this note down.

Joe Mathews

Franchise Performance GroupCo-author Street Smart Franchising

December 12, 2006 - 09:28am

UFOC

What many of you are not understanding is that the UFOC (Franchise Agreement) is not givin to you until after you have paid your 25k. Also many new people eager to become owners try to view a UFOC before they sign their life over, but it says in that book strictly that it is confidential, making owners of that book afraid of lending it out.

So what happens until you receive that book? Your told about great times in Vegas (Quiznos meeting were thrown there before, but at your blood sweat and tears), The new types of cigars you'll be smoking with your new income, the new lexus you'll be driving, how easily you can upgrade to a 4000sq foot home, and among other things.

Once you pay the 25k and then finally receive that UFOC, Quiznos then shuts its heavy Steel door in your face, assigns you a cell number and a cell block. And your area regional director walks away with his fur coat while smoking a cuban cigar gets into his porsche and is never heard from again................ Welcome to Quiznos........

I too am a victim and this happened to me. I was unfortunate I folded with a huge loss. Never made a dime since day one.

December 15, 2006 - 15:35pm

For Paul, Frankman and Fransynergy...

A couple of quick points from a former Quiznos corporate employee...

1. Have you noticed that they always post as guests..it is because Quiznos Corp will send out a default notice/Termination letter if they are found to have "created ill will" by the sole judgement of Quiznos Corporate. They have no voice! If they speak out, they are threatened, berated, and sued. This is not an overstatement. They are then forced to sign an additional agreement promising not to speak out again in any format (this includes meetings or even with other local owners).

2. Paul and Fransynergy, you both seem to spend quite a bit of time defending Quiznos Corporate, but seem to be basing you responses on limited information at best. For example, Quiznos has each store base their food cost on top line sales (before discounts), not bottom line cash in. As far as I know, they are the only major chain that takes that approach, and this leads to reporting the typical stores food costs 4-8 points below what it actually is!

3. Q knows there is are major issues with their FO's, and they need to take steps to address these issues or JP Morgan will not be purchasing the remaiming 51% of the business...by the way, the other posting was correct...2.4 billion for 100% of the company was the initial asking price as stated in the WSJ, and JP Morgan purchased half of the company for 25% of the asking price. As a side note, 8 venture capital firms expressed interest and all 8 backed away from the table within 30 days after a short review of the organization. That is how JP Morgan got such a great deal.

4. As a former Quiznos Corporate employee I saw a lot of awful things. For 4 years I was proud of our growth, product, and brand. The past 2 years I had a hard time living with myself because of the corporate executive team, the level of pure greed, and the direction the company was going in. They repeatedly sold territories to more than one FO, they collected millions in rebates and never shared those rebates with the FO's (until recently), they lied in the sales process, inflated food and paper costs, and overall behaved in a frighteningly one-sided manner.

I am happy to be out of the organization, I can even sleep at night & look myself in the mirror once again! All of us former Quiznos Corporate employees were repeatedly told of the evils of the TSFA, but looking at it these days, they might be just the kick in the ass that Quiznos needs! (and secretly we are all watching closely as this house of cards tumbles)

December 17, 2006 - 18:52pm

It's a shame.

I heard today about Bob Baber and I feel deeply moved by his plight. I can personally understand the painful truth of running a Quiznos sub. My husband and I are former Quiznos owners from NW New Jersey. Frequently we cried, yelled and despaired after we put in our 13 hour days, 7 days a week with no time off. We were losing $2-3k a month to this business and often spoke about just walking away from everything and taking revenge against our foes (the bank, Quiznos, the less than understanding landlord, etc. I guess we had nothing better to do than dwell on our misfortunes (after the dishes were done and the floor was mopped, of course). Fortunately we were able to sell the business and (at a huge loss) some time ago. Our lives will never be the same. I am still amazed that my husband and I stuck together through the crisis.

It's so unfortunate that Bob felt compelled to take his own life because of Quiznos. Our deepest sympathy goes out to his family.

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

Quiznos falls out of Franchise 500 Rankings

After reading all these horror stories it is no wonder why Quiznos has fallen out of the top 500 frachises to own. Being ranked #2 in 2006 and not even making the top 500 this year should tell you where this company is headed. It is good to see that people have finally started noticing their crooked business practices. I hope all these lawsuits are won by the franchisees so Quiznos can get a taste of their own medecine and see what it's like to lose a fortune. May Bob Baber rest in peace and God bless his family. Link to the 2007 Franchise 500 Rankings.

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

Suicide of Bob Baber ---No notice ---No Regulation

WE see that the suicide of Bob Baber was swept under the rug and never made it in the National Media ------- Hopefully, someone will believe this is material for a documentary and we will have some good investigative journalists out there who will bring the "relationship evils" of franchising to the attention of the public.
But, will the corporate media let them?
I'm not so sure that there isn't a conspiracy of interests to prevent the regulation of franchising and "equal protection" for franchisees under the laws.
Mr. BS ---Believe and Succeed---advises that Quiznos is only off of the Top 5 because they didn't submit their paper work.
And, we see that UPS remains No. 5. Mr. BS feels very secure in his position and spent most of yesterday defendig UPS.
I will, however, give him credit for telling some truths in his postings.
It is obvious that he sincerely believes that the banks and the lenders should be protected from risk but tha franchisees should have to use advisors, like him, and attorneys to access the risk factor in purchasing a franchise. And, I do understand that this is "good for business"!
I'm out of here!

December 28, 2006 - 19:22pm

Reason for the Flop

CORPORATE GREED!! Greed kills everything. From what I see of this company, there actions are appaulling, and to blame the poor franchisees, who work their butts off day in and day out! The Quiznos in my area went out of business, the franchise owners were good business people, the store was spotless, they were constantly in their store, they marketed, etc., I guess they were in the shock of their lives, when they were presented with the food costs (from what we heard astronomically inflated), also, they said that Quiznos forced them to give away free food, so as too create a higher food order the next week!! I feel for all these franchisees!!

December 29, 2006 - 12:35pm

Although the Baber's family

Although the Baber's family tragedy isn't something we hear about often, the tactics and abuse that were directed at these franchisees are all too common in the industry. When is our federal legislature going to address post sale franchise issues by moving forward with either an expansion of the FTC rules or the passage of the SBFA? What is it going to take for these very important issues to gain momentum?

December 29, 2006 - 13:47pm

Im not an attorney, but

Im not an attorney, but could one see this as a wrongful death caused by the franchisor?

December 29, 2006 - 12:35pm

Although the Baber's family

December 7, 2006 - 19:05pm

There is a saying in the

There is a saying in the franchise community concerning Quiznos corporate communication with its franchise owners. "If Quiznos wants your opinion, they will give it to you."Stay away from this franchise. It will tear your life and family apart.

Bob Frankman

December 8, 2006 - 10:47am

Tragedy, But Quiznos Numbers Look Good

This certainly is a tragedy. It's not an easy thing for some of us men when our business goes south. So much of our hunter/gatherer identity is bundled with our work, so when a business doesn't succeed, we feel like such a personal failure - wasted our lives away. But that just ain't so. One of the great things about America is the ability to dust ourselves off from failure to start again. New business, new marriage, new city, new religion, new dog... well, you get the idea.

In regards to owning a Quiznos, I'd just like to point out that according to the SBA failure rate tool posted on this site, the chances for business success are as good as they come. I know that's a different message than the loud noises we hear on the street. According to the SBA, only 0.13% of 1400 SBA loans disbursed (quite a large sample size) between 2000 - 2005 to Quiznos franchise owners failed.

Frankman

Bob Frankman

December 8, 2006 - 16:52pm

An Offering In Suffering

For everything there is a season. I will continue this discussion about Quiznos another time.

I am going through a mix of emotions. Came across this:

Whatever you do, make it an offering to me -- the food you eat, the sacrifices you make, the help you give, even your suffering. - Bhagavad-Gita

Even in death, Mr. Baber published his anguish about his franchise experiences and what he felt were inadequate protections of franchisee's rights in the hope of helping others, although he felt it was too late for himself. He wanted others to benefit from his suffering. Is that not an offering, even in suffering?

My sincere condolences to his family and friends.

Frankman

December 8, 2006 - 21:06pm

Quiznos/ALWAYS 4 Sale

Time to chime in about a less than average franchise company, in my humble opinion.For $175k, there are certainly a plethora of choices in the world of franchising today, even some that don't have several pages of litigation.In my experience, I have never heard a positive thing about Quiznos. Now, I am not a huge fan of restaurant franchising, having been in the restaurant business for years and years.If someone gifted me a restaurant, I would be the landlord, collect my rent, and distance myself from the operation. Issues like 400% employee turnover, fickle customers, high cost, among others...{Did I mention the work is 7 days a week, and about 12-15 hours a day} restaurants are not for everyone.But, lots of folks have done quite well as owners, so some of my opinions have to do withmy own head, and my personal experience. For the right person, with the right skill sets, a restaurant franchise may be perfect.I have had clients mention Quiznos in passing, and they just kept on passing. When it comes to franchise investing, when one does the proper research, leaving the emotion out of course, and concentrating on fact gathering, a wise decision can be made.My prayers are with this gentleman's family.Franpro

December 9, 2006 - 12:20pm

Applauding the Leadership of Greg & Joe!

For days I’ve been torn on whether or not to chime in on this issue. I now only chime in to support the comments made by Greg Nathan and Joe Mathews. When someone takes their life it is a tragedy, for the person whose life has been lost, for their families and for many others who were involved with the person or became involved as a result of the act itself.

Now is not the time to point fingers and lay blame. Now is not the time to use this terribly sad and unfortunate event to promote an agenda. In my opinion now is the time for Quiznos, Toasted Subs Franchise Association, and the entire franchising community to come together in offering support to those who were impacted by this tragic event.

Now is the time for Franchise Leadership to stand up and show their support to the family and extinguish this fire before it grows any further. It is not time to continue to pour fuel on the fire. I applaud both Greg & Joe for standing up and demonstrating the type of leadership which will allow franchising to grow, and not adding fuel to the fire which only hurts us all! I call on other franchise leaders to do the same!

On behalf of myself and my company, I offer our sincerest condolences to the family of Mr. Baber for the loss of a loved one, as well as to the Quiznos family of franchisees!

Believe & Succeed,FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!www.fransynergy.com

Mr. Blue MauMau

December 9, 2006 - 13:16pm

At the Family's Behest

Ms. Janet Sparks is sharing Bob Baber's note and story with the community at the widow's behest. Blue MauMau has honored that wish, as have other websites. In an email to the editor, Ms. Sparks wrote:

"I spoke with Ratti Baber [Bob Baber's widow] and her request was to post it [the note]. She said, 'I really appreciate you putting the word out. We don’t have another Bob Baber out there. We are another family grieving over the strains of the bad model of the franchise system.' Then she praised the TSFA [Toasted Subs Franchisee Association] for coming to her aid, at a time when she felt her life was over. "

Mr. Greg Nathan, a psychologist and the Managing Director of Franchise Relationships Institute, was asked if he might write about what franchisees can do when all seems to be spiraling down out of control. His article can be found here.

This tragedy highlights issues that a few of our franchisee readers may be experiencing or are interested in. Readers can expect more reporting from Ms. Sparks on this story here in the next few days.

Mr. Blue MauMauEditor

December 10, 2006 - 11:12am

Being eaten

Guest,Thank you for commenting on our Blog.Getting real world comments from franchisees that are in the trenches every day is a critical component of this type of blog.To future franchisees of any franchise:Do not invest in a franchise just because it is "branded".I always ask my clients why they want to join ABC Franchise Co.If it mostly because of great name recognition, most are doomed to fail.If it part of the reason, and their reasons go deeper than name recognition...i.e. matches their personal and professional strengths, investment capability etc. ...only then is the possibility for success reasonably high.There are great franchise companies out there with average marketing and branding, and there are lousy franchises to choose from that have great sales staffs, and superb marketing etc.Choose wisely!Franpro

December 10, 2006 - 12:16pm

Investegate Corporate!!!!!

I definitely think Bob wanted something to be done here, and this was the only way to do it. I sincerely hope Quizno's is investegated, for I have heard many stories of owners being screwed by corporate. I sure hope I hear something soon about an investigation!!!

Bob Frankman

December 10, 2006 - 15:39pm

Quizno's Thread

I've been trying to keep quiet. I'd like to hear more about Bob Barber, his background and his fight here, under the news of his passing.

And I'd be a little more comfortable understanding, discussing, and debating elsewhere what the beef is with some Quizno's owners. So, if Mr. Blue MauMau doesn't mind, I've started a thread in our forum section, away from this news story. It is:

What's Wrong With This Concept - Quizno's?

Expect some push back if you are arguing how terrible the concept is, because up to now it is difficult to understand what the beef is.

Frankman

December 10, 2006 - 17:06pm

"Final Thoughts" & Free Assistance!

Dear ‘Guest’

I knew I did not want to or need to get involved in this overly emotional dialogue, I gave in to the temptation and now I’m being called “Arrogant” and accused of delivering “Franchisor Rhetoric”. With continued reluctance I’ll respond to your comments and add to my own thoughts.

As for being “Arrogant”, at a very early age I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance, and have found no reason to change.

As for “Franchisor Rhetoric”, I’m committed to the advancement of franchising, and work with both franchisee and franchisor. Successful franchisors must be committed to the success of a system as a whole, and must make decisions which are good for the majority even if unpopular with the minority. Therefore if in an effort to voice what I believe to be in the best interest of franchising it sounds like what you call “Franchisor Rhetoric”, so be it.

As for “My Listening” ability, I listen quite well, and what I hear is a few people with personal agendas exploiting a tragic and unfortunate event! It has been less than 2 weeks since Mr. Baber took his own life. I believe now is the time to provide sympathy and support for the loss of a good man. I do not believe that it is time to sling mud. ANGER is a natural part of the grieving process, especially in the event of a suicide. Those who are less emotionally involved must try to help calm those who are hurt and angered. Quiznos is in a damned if they do and damned if they don’t position. Personally, I’d have preferred to have seen Toasted Subs put up the tribute page to a deceased franchisee without ‘the letter’ which has been portrayed as a suicide letter when actually it was a letter in his possession at the time of his death.

Many people believe that Quiznos offers a superior consumer product. Unfortunately having a superior product does not automatically translate into a great franchise system. Quiznos has worked and worked well for thousands of franchisees. There have also been many who have been unable to make the Quiznos system work for themselves. With the entire Quiznos franchise system being up for sale, it is probably fair to assume that it is not meeting the expectations of ownership either.

There are very few businesses, franchise or otherwise, that move from start-up to American success story without experiencing a lot of challenge and stress along the way. Divorce, loss of savings, and downturns in life style, are not unique to franchising nor is franchising immune to these ill-effects of pursuing the entrepreneurial dream. An investment in a franchise is like any other investment; one should not invest more than they are prepared to lose. This advice is not limited to money, it applies to emotion, time, family, etc….

Quiznos is not the perfect franchise system, but Quiznos did not follow Mr. Baber into the restroom and fire three shots into his chest. People do not take their on life because of a single event but because they have lost hope for the future as the result of a culmination of events. The annual suicide rate in the U.S. is approximately 12 per 100,000 in population. It is not statistically out of line for a franchisor the size of Quiznos to have experienced such a tragedy.

There are two (2) points I’d like to make:

FIRST: Only Mr. Baber and his maker know why he took his own life. It appears as though Mr. Baber had a desire to contribute to making Quiznos a better franchise system. It appears as though Mr. Baber was sincere and passionate in his efforts to do so. Blaming Quiznos for an unfortunate event will not make for a better system. If anything it only harms the system, and the franchisees who are trying to work within the system.

SECOND: Suicide is never the ONLY answer, it is never the BEST answer, and should never even be considered as a POSSIBLE answer, to anything at anytime!At FranSynergy we want every day to be a great day, however we know life doesn’t always go as planned. Therefore as part of our Franchise Service Package we provide our clients with the ‘Resources for Living’ EAP, with special features designed for the issues faced by today’s franchisee. Franchisees have immediate access to confidential support via a secure website and/or access to trained counselors via a toll free number, for a variety of concerns from coping with grief and stress to information and support on financial issues, childcare, relationships and other life challenges. This program is valued at more than $600; however we would like to make it available FREE of CHARGE to any franchisee who may be feeling suicidal. If you feel as though you could benefit from this free confidential assistance email freeeap@fransynergy.com include Free EAP in the subject line and a brief description of your current situation. We will then respond by sending you the information you’ll need to access the program by internet and/or by phone. You may also find the information below to be helpful.

Again, my condolences go out to Quiznos Corporate, Quiznos’ Franchisees, and most importantly to the Baber Family. This will be the last public comment I make on this matter.

Believe & Succeed,

FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchise at a Time!www.fransynergy.com

HELPFUL RESOURCES

Web Links

The American Association of Suicidology website: http://www.suicidology.org/index.html

Books

The following books are available through the American Association of Suicidology website:

(http://www.suicidology.org/index.html). You can either select “Resources” or do a search using the book’s title in the search window.

The Suicide Intervention Handbook, by B. Tanney, R. Tierney, & W. Lang, Living Works Education, Inc., 1994. A 75-page book that deals with the basics of suicide intervention. A resource for both professionals and the general public, it provides basic practical information on dealing with a person who might be at risk for suicide.
No Time to Say Good-bye: Surviving the Suicide of a Loved One, by C. Fine, Doubleday, 1997.
Clergy Response to Suicidal Persons and their Family Members, by D. C. Clark, Ed., Exploration Press, 1993. Interfaith resource book for clergy and congregations. Information is appropriate for managers or anyone who is perceived as a leader. Provides basic knowledge about theology and suicide, recognizing suicidal risk, and how to refer to appropriate caregivers.

Organizations

Local Emergency Response Resource: 911
Hope Line Network: 1-800-SUICIDE (800-784-2433)
Metro-Help (national crisis hotline for suicidal youths) (800) 621-4000.
Covenant House Nine Line (national crisis hotline for suicidal youths) (800) 999-9999. http://www.covenanthouse.org/en/standard/index.htm
American Association of Suicidology refers to local crisis hotlines.
2459 South Ash, Denver CO 80222 (303) 692-0985 http://www.suicidology.org/
Recovery, Inc (mental health organization for those suffering from emotional pain) 802 N. Dearborn, Chicago, IL. 60610 (312) 337-5661 http://www.recovery-inc.com/
National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) (a nonprofit, grassroots, self-help, support and advocacy organization of consumers, families, and friends of people with severe mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, major depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety disorders) Colonial Place Three, 2107 Wilson Blvd., Suite 300, Arlington, VA 22201-3042 (800) 950-NAMI (6264) http://www.nami.org/

December 8, 2006 - 21:06pm

Quiznos/ALWAYS 4 Sale

December 12, 2006 - 09:40am

UFOC

Quiznos cannot take your money until you have reviewed the UFOC at least 10 days. It this didn't occur, you have a case against them but I'm sure your mistaken

December 9, 2006 - 12:20pm

Applauding the Leadership of Greg & Joe!

On behalf of myself and my company, I offer our sincerest condolences to the family of Mr. Baber for the loss of a loved one, as well as to the Quiznos family of franchisees!

Believe & Succeed,FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!www.fransynergy.com

December 12, 2006 - 11:13am

FTC 10-Day & 5 Day Rules

As a practice Quiznos is compliant with the FTC 5 & 10 Day rules. That doesn't mean that in some isolated case someone did not slip up and mess up. If you feel as though Quiznos' failed to comply with either the 5 or 10 day rules, and if the audit trail validates that, you certainly would have grounds for a suit, and would most likely prevail. Below you'll find a brief description of the rule, and keep in mind that these are business days.

10-day and 5-day Rules: A FTC requirement that the franchisor give potential franchisees a complete copy of their UFOC at least 10 business days before any contract is signed or any money changes hands (the 10-day Rule). Also, potential franchisees must be given a separate contract, with all blanks or negotiated parts completed (except signatures) at least five business days before any contract is signed or any money changes hands (the 5-day Rule).

Believe & Succeed,FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!www.fransynergy.com

December 10, 2006 - 11:12am

Being eaten

December 10, 2006 - 17:06pm

"Final Thoughts" & Free Assistance!

Dear ‘Guest’

As for being “Arrogant”, at a very early age I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose honest arrogance, and have found no reason to change.

There are two (2) points I’d like to make:

Again, my condolences go out to Quiznos Corporate, Quiznos’ Franchisees, and most importantly to the Baber Family. This will be the last public comment I make on this matter.

Believe & Succeed,

FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchise at a Time!www.fransynergy.com

HELPFUL RESOURCES

Web Links

The American Association of Suicidology website: http://www.suicidology.org/index.html

Books

The following books are available through the American Association of Suicidology website:

(http://www.suicidology.org/index.html). You can either select “Resources” or do a search using the book’s title in the search window.

The Suicide Intervention Handbook, by B. Tanney, R. Tierney, & W. Lang, Living Works Education, Inc., 1994. A 75-page book that deals with the basics of suicide intervention. A resource for both professionals and the general public, it provides basic practical information on dealing with a person who might be at risk for suicide.
No Time to Say Good-bye: Surviving the Suicide of a Loved One, by C. Fine, Doubleday, 1997.
Clergy Response to Suicidal Persons and their Family Members, by D. C. Clark, Ed., Exploration Press, 1993. Interfaith resource book for clergy and congregations. Information is appropriate for managers or anyone who is perceived as a leader. Provides basic knowledge about theology and suicide, recognizing suicidal risk, and how to refer to appropriate caregivers.

Organizations

Local Emergency Response Resource: 911
Hope Line Network: 1-800-SUICIDE (800-784-2433)
Metro-Help (national crisis hotline for suicidal youths) (800) 621-4000.
Covenant House Nine Line (national crisis hotline for suicidal youths) (800) 999-9999. http://www.covenanthouse.org/en/standard/index.htm
American Association of Suicidology refers to local crisis hotlines.
2459 South Ash, Denver CO 80222 (303) 692-0985 http://www.suicidology.org/
Recovery, Inc (mental health organization for those suffering from emotional pain) 802 N. Dearborn, Chicago, IL. 60610 (312) 337-5661 http://www.recovery-inc.com/
National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) (a nonprofit, grassroots, self-help, support and advocacy organization of consumers, families, and friends of people with severe mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, major depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety disorders) Colonial Place Three, 2107 Wilson Blvd., Suite 300, Arlington, VA 22201-3042 (800) 950-NAMI (6264) http://www.nami.org/

December 12, 2006 - 11:13am

FTC 10-Day & 5 Day Rules

Believe & Succeed,FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!www.fransynergy.com

December 16, 2006 - 23:12pm

I work at a Quiznos

I work at a Quiznos franshise in Ottawa, Ontario Canada. These horror stories have a sickenly familiar refrain. Since beginning work at this new location I have heard nothing but grumbling from my boss on how Quizno's treats him and his impossible overhead costs. He is, I suppose, a typical Quiznos owner....his background was in high tech (engineer) and although he pulled down a 6 figure salary, wanted to get into business for himself. What better way than a fast food franchise, right? Wrong, owning a fast food franchise..especially one run like Quiznos runs it.... is a good way to piss away your life savings, apparently. After only one year in business, the for sale sign is up. Problem is.....and doesn't this sound familiar....there are two other Quiznos nearby and so far no serious offer. Moral of the story...if someone asks for advice on how to get a Quiznos franchise, JUST SAY NO! And BTW, we have come up with our own little explanation of what the acronym Quiznos means....have a chuckle on me: Q QUIT KIDDING YOURSELF U U GOTTA BE KIDDING ME I INVESTIGATE THESE CROOKS Z ZERO RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT N NOT A CHANCE IN HELL OF EVER TURNING A PROFIT O ONLY A DAMN FOOL WOULD BUY THIS FRANCHISE S SUCKERS....THERE'S ONE BORN EVERY MINUTE

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

Off the List for failure...

Dear Guest:

Welcome: You must be new to BlueMaumau, although it's hard to tell, the Sir Name of Guest is quite common here in the land of the bluemaumau.

Please allow me to point out that if you'll dig deeper into the Quiznos discussion you'll learn that YES Quiznos is not in the Top 500 but that is only because the person at Quiznos or at the marketing/PR agency associated with Quiznos Failed to return their paperwork to Entrepreneur in the appropriate time frame. Had they done so, they would have most likely remained in the top 5.

Believe & Succeed,FranSynergySynergizing Franchising 1 Franchisee at a time!wwww.fransynergy.com

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

can you tell me how you sold

can you tell me how you sold your business? i feel like i am exactly in your shoes

FuwaFuwaUsagi

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

Jsut a thought...

Deleted by poster...

Bob Frankman

February 28, 2007 - 07:32am

Blue MauMau Baber Story Sparks Mainstream Media

Dear Guest,

You must be new so I'll give you a fast recap of the Baber suicide as covered here. Blue MauMau is the site that cared enough to carry this story when no other journal would. We were the spark that started the flame.

There were other previous franchisee suicides at Quiznos. Unfortunately, Blue MauMau did not exist at the time. NO TRADE JOURNAL COVERED THEM. As for Mr. Baber, Janet Sparks broke the news of his suicide on Blue MauMau on December 7 from a small paragraph on a suicide at a local Quiznos in the Whittier Times.

The franchise angle of this was originally covered by two sources. The Toasted Subs Franchisee Association was the only other site that had the chutzpah to post the suicide note. And what did they get for their efforts? Unfortunately, since they are associated with Quiznos and not a third-party media like Blue MauMau, Quiznos corporation sent a notice of franchise termination to TSFA's board of directors - all franchisees - instructing them to take off the suicide note. The note is no longer there. You can still read Baber's suicide note (pdf) here.

Quiznos' corporate heavy-handedness caused an uproar in this community with posts denouncing such corporate action coming fast and furious.

Shortly after, Rick Schaden stepped down from his position as CEO and a new turnaround king was appointed.

After it was covered here, other industry journals decided that they would cover it. And it seems to me that journalists of the mainstream media interested in franchising began watching our site and its input from the street. I was pleased to see that our efforts here caught the attention of mainstream media when BusinessWeek wrote an article that mentioned Bob Baber.

This is how I see it. If you want the real news scoop by your fellow franchisees, this is the place. We have franchise consultants and franchiser executives who argue the other side. Yet others argue for regulation. Such a wide array of views may be messy. For me, it ensures from time to time that I read something that is opposite to my point of view. But many of us like such an approach to franchise news and issues. Getting to the kernel of truth takes effort.